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Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)
Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)
IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would choose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some choose Jesus, some say no thanks.
Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)
Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)
IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would chose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some chose Jesus, some say no thanks.
Discuss.
Psalm 139 states that God foreknew everyone in the womb because he created them.
So if God knew all then all are also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
That is my take on it. There is nothing free about our will.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
I do not see that the word translated as foreknew has the meaning of seeing what someone would do in the future and and making a decision or doing something based on that knowledge
The times that it is used in the NT it is used with the sense of ordaining and knowing.
In Romans 11 it says that God has not cast away his people Israel who he foreknew and who rebelled
It seems that election can be narrowed down to christians are 'elect' and non christians are not but in scripture there seems to be more to it.......
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Election seems to have a purpose not limited to only salvation for the 'elected' - it seems to be more about showing mercy to those not 'elected'..........
Predestinated verses
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
What I see is that you think it is our decision then God knew what our decision was going to be so he then foreknew what we were going to choose, but what I see scripture saying is that God does thing after the council of HIS will --
There are many prophecy on the Messiah Jesus to come in the Old Testament and completion in the New Testament...... `In Samuel 7:16 The Lord God says to Nathan that King David will be the line to Jesus ........``And thine house and the kingdom shall be estabished for ever before thee, they throne shall be establisher forever...........In Isaiah 49:6 ........``I will also give thee for the light of the gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth..........In Micah 5;1-2......... Messiah born in Bethlehem....``But thou Bethlehem of Ephretah through thou be little among the thousand of Judah yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel whose going forth have been from the old from everlasting ``..........In Isaiah 9; 6...`` for unto us a child is born unto us a son is given , and that government shall be unto his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.``..........In Isaiah 53; 1-3 ......Messiah rejected ......`` Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? ..... For he shall grow before him as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground, he hath no form nor comeliness and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.......... He is dispised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows and aquinted with griefs and we hid as it were our faces from him he is despised and we esteem him not.........In Daniel 9: 24-26 talks about the destruction and the Messiah the Prince in the Desolation............ In John 3;16 ...`` For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life......
Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)
Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)
IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would choose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some choose Jesus, some say no thanks.
Discuss.
You are redefining "foreknew" to mean only the ones God knew in advance would choose Christ. That's not what foreknew means. It simply means "to know beforehand." When you realize who all God foreknew, you'll realize who He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
You are redefining "foreknew" to mean only the ones God knew in advance would choose Christ. That's not what foreknew means. It simply means "to know beforehand." When you realize who all God foreknew, you'll realize who He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
But I have a sneaking feeling that mr5150 would like non UR's to discuss in this thread ............
20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
Revelation 13:8 (New International Version)
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[a]
Footnotes:
Revelation 13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain
Last edited by JOHNC10; 06-02-2010 at 01:35 AM..
Reason: added scripture
Actually I was hoping to get Calvanists and Aremians and those in between to chime in.
It sure seems to me that some people will never choose Christ-which makes me wonder about Predestination
Well, I'm "almost" a Calvinist. I believe everything in the TULIP except for the "L," limited atonement. I believe the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was NOT for the purpose of saving only the elect.
THE CALVINISTIC "TULIP"
TULIP is the acronym for the basic ideas of classical Calvinism.
(The simplistic version)
T - total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself. U - unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit. L - limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect. I - irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will. P - perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.
Actually I was hoping to get Calvanists and Aremians and those in between to chime in.
It sure seems to me that some people will never choose Christ-which makes me wonder about Predestination
Like I said to Finn-
If you are offered salvation (most will agree that the offer is to everyone) and must accept it for it to count then which is it that causes you to be saved? The offer or the acceptance?
Obviously the acceptance (choice) is what saved you because had you ignored the offer you would be left unsaved. Therefore, LOGICALLY, it is the acceptance (which the person does) that saves. The person saves themselves.
However if predestination is true then we can surely figure out that it is the OFFER that saves and not the acceptance so that no one can boast.
Does that make sense? Freewill places the act of salvation on the person (of which they can boast that they made the correct choice while others did not) but predestination places the act of salvation on God where it should rightly be... IMO
And we have shown that the Calvinistic ideal that only some are predestined is false because God foreknew all that he created. Therefore, LOGICALLY, all are predestined and all are saved no matter what choice they want to make.
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The gift doesn't need acceptance or it would be of yourselves.
So if you believe it is the acceptance of the offer (gift) that saves you then sure freewill makes sense but it goes against scripture. IMO
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But I have a sneaking feeling that mr5150 would like non UR's to discuss in this thread ............
