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Old 06-02-2010, 09:29 PM
 
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Latte

So true - We all need that mirror
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte

So true - We all need that mirror
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,053,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Latte

So true - We all need that mirror
Yup, and sometimes some need to be reminded......

Rom. 2:1-16
1 If you think you can judge others, you are wrong. When you judge them, you are really judging yourself guilty, because you do the same things they do.
2 God judges those who do wrong things, and we know that his judging is right.
3 You judge those who do wrong, but you do wrong yourselves. Do you think you will be able to escape the judgment of God?
4 He has been very kind and patient, waiting for you to change, but you think nothing of his kindness. Perhaps you do not understand that God is kind to you so you will change your hearts and lives.
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God's right judgments.
6 God will reward or punish every person for what that person has done.
7 Some people, by always continuing to do good, live for God's glory, for honor, and for life that has no end. God will give them life forever.
8 But other people are selfish. They refuse to follow truth and, instead, follow evil. God will give them his punishment and anger.
9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews.
10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews.
11 For God judges all people in the same way.
12 People who do not have the law and who are sinners will be lost, although they do not have the law. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.
13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. It is those who obey the law who will be right with him.
14 (Those who are not Jews do not have the law, but when they freely do what the law commands, they are the law for themselves. This is true even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, just as the law commands. And they show this by their consciences. Sometimes their thoughts tell them they did wrong, and sometimes their thoughts tell them they did right.)
16 All these things will happen on the day when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge people's secret thoughts. The Good News that I preach says this.
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Here is a hint: Matthew 25:41
Let's take a moment to look at the very verse(s) you mentioned:

Matt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now, a few reflections:

--the throne of God is man's heart. 2 Thess.: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

--Jesus tells us that He is judging the nations (not individuals);

--Remember that BOTH sheep and goats are clean animals. Both were acceptable for the Passover. The Lamb of God could've been the goat of God. This is where we get "scapegoat."

--Jesus is therefore speaking to Nations and how they treated His brethren. Even the least of brethren includes all men.

--the everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and angels, not for people.

--Everlasting punishment, not eternal punishment. Everlasting means "age-lasting."

So I don't see anything here about people sent into eternal torment..

Is that what you see?

blessings!
brian
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,581 posts, read 31,984,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
--the throne of God is man's heart. 2 Thess.: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

--Jesus tells us that He is judging the nations (not individuals);

--Remember that BOTH sheep and goats are clean animals. Both were acceptable for the Passover. The Lamb of God could've been the goat of God. This is where we get "scapegoat."

--Jesus is therefore speaking to Nations and how they treated His brethren. Even the least of brethren includes all men.

--the everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and angels, not for people.

--Everlasting punishment, not eternal punishment. Everlasting means "age-lasting."

So I don't see anything here about people sent into eternal torment..

Is that what you see?

blessings!
brian
So you think God will not judge us individually, but based on which country we live in? LOL
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:55 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,696,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Let's take a moment to look at the very verse(s) you mentioned:

Matt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now, a few reflections:

--the throne of God is man's heart. 2 Thess.: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
The Throne of God is NOT in man's heart. Since this is not the topic of this thread, I will address this at a later time in a thread of its own.


Quote:
--Jesus tells us that He is judging the nations (not individuals);
Nations are composed of individuals. It is the individuals of the nations who are judged. At the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation, all unbelievers are cast off the earth and into the eternal fire as described in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the baptism of fire which John the Baptist prophesied in Matthew 3:12.


Quote:
--Remember that BOTH sheep and goats are clean animals. Both were acceptable for the Passover. The Lamb of God could've been the goat of God. This is where we get "scapegoat."
Of the goats, Matthew 25:41 says this in no uncertain terms. ''Then He will say to those on His left (the goats), 'Depart from Me accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

The sheep are to the goats what the wheat is to the tares. The wheat (believers) gets gathered into the barn, and the tares are burned up with unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:12).

The sheep (believers) go into the kingdom. The goats (unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

Quote:
--the everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and angels, not for people.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will say to those on His left (unbelieving humanity), 'Depart from Me, accursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And yes, the beast and the false prophet are human.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's (unbelieving PEOPLE) name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Scriptures are clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire.

Quote:
--Everlasting punishment, not eternal punishment. Everlasting means "age-lasting."
No it does not mean age-lasting. Everlasting refers to that which has a beginning but no ending. Eternal refers to that which has no beginning and no ending.

Regarding the meaning of AIONIOS, once again, I will present these resources for those who are interested.



The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Throne of God is NOT in man's heart. Since this is not the topic of this thread, I will address this at a later time in a thread of its own.

He who confesses not that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh (your own flesh) is not of God. Know ye not that Jesus Christ is IN you??
If you do not feel Jesus in your heart, keep looking and seeking, friend!


Nations are composed of individuals. It is the individuals of the nations who are judged. At the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation, all unbelievers are cast off the earth and into the eternal fire as described in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the baptism of fire which John the Baptist prophesied in Matthew 3:12.

To each his own conviction. I disagree, because Jesus is returning in the hearts of men and women everyday. Again, Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. If you have the Son, you have the Father, too.


Of the goats, Matthew 25:41 says this in no uncertain terms. ''Then He will say to those on His left (the goats), 'Depart from Me accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

The sheep are to the goats what the wheat is to the tares. The wheat (believers) gets gathered into the barn, and the tares are burned up with unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:12).

The sheep (believers) go into the kingdom. The goats (unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

GOD is a consuming fire. He purpose of the ages is to save man, and He will not lose what He came to save. God doesn't make garbage. Man makes garbage.
We need a revelation of God's MERCY to understand His purposes. Otherwise, we cannot understand the verses you quote anymore than the world can understand them.


Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will say to those on His left (unbelieving humanity), 'Depart from Me, accursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And yes, the beast and the false prophet are human.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's (unbelieving PEOPLE) name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Scriptures are clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire.

Again, GOD is our fire, and everyone will be salted with it. Are you ready?


No it does not mean age-lasting. Everlasting refers to that which has a beginning but no ending. Eternal refers to that which has no beginning and no ending.

Regarding the meaning of AIONIOS, once again, I will present these resources for those who are interested.



The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Blessings to you, Mike.
brian
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. Isa. 57.16.

We need to know the SPIRIT of Jesus.

blessings,
brian
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:37 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,696,619 times
Reputation: 7451
Quote:
He who confesses not that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh (your own flesh) is not of God. Know ye not that Jesus Christ is IN you??
If you do not feel Jesus in your heart, keep looking and seeking, friend!
Again, the throne of God is Not in the human heart. That has absolutely nothng to do with the fact that the three members of the Godhead indwell the body of the believer. The throneroom of God is the third heaven. As I said, I will address this at a later time in its own thread.

Quote:
To each his own conviction. I disagree, because Jesus is returning in the hearts of men and women everyday. Again, Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. If you have the Son, you have the Father, too.
Jesus Christ is not returning everyday in the hearts of men. You are confusing the indwelling of the members of the Godhead (John 14:23;1 Cor 6:19) with the physical return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation (Zech 14; Rev 19:11-16).

Quote:
GOD is a consuming fire. He purpose of the ages is to save man, and He will not lose what He came to save. God doesn't make garbage. Man makes garbage.
We need a revelation of God's MERCY to understand His purposes. Otherwise, we cannot understand the verses you quote anymore than the world can understand them.
Again, GOD is our fire, and everyone will be salted with it. Are you ready?
The passages are perfectly understandable and completely clear. They are only rejected by those who refuse to face reality.

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will say to those on His left (unbelieving humanity), 'Depart from Me, accursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And yes, the beast and the false prophet are human.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's (unbelieving PEOPLE) name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the end of the Millennium, every unbeliever who had been confined in Hades, will be resurrected out of Hades, to stand before Jesus Christ as the judge who will hand out final sentencing to the lake of fire as per Revelation 20:11-15. They will, in their resurrected bodies, join the antichrist and the false prophet who will have already been in the lake of fire in torment for a thousand years by that time. Satan will also be thrown into the eternal fire at this approximate time. There is no reprieve from this place.

The Scriptures are clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire. Forever.
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
[quote=Mike555;14455785]The Throne of God is NOT in man's heart. Since this is not the topic of this thread, I will address this at a later time in a thread of its own.




Nations are composed of individuals. It is the individuals of the nations who are judged. At the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation, all unbelievers are cast off the earth and into the eternal fire as described in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the baptism of fire which John the Baptist prophesied in Matthew 3:12.




Of the goats, Matthew 25:41 says this in no uncertain terms. ''Then He will say to those on His left (the goats), 'Depart from Me accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

The sheep are to the goats what the wheat is to the tares. The wheat (believers) gets gathered into the barn, and the tares are burned up with unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:12).

The sheep (believers) go into the kingdom. The goats (unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.



Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will say to those on His left (unbelieving humanity), 'Depart from Me, accursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And yes, the beast and the false prophet are human.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's (unbelieving PEOPLE) name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Scriptures are clear that all unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire.


Unbelievers will end up however God chooses. But I trust in His mercies, which never fail.
My God is not a failure...

As for Jesus come in the flesh, look at what Saul learned on the road to Damascus: "Who art thou, Lord?" "I am Jesus, WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST." Saul was persecuting Jesus, coming in a company of people! "He who has seen me has seen the Father. How sayest thou, shew us the Father??"
He is here now, my friend!

The manifestation of the Sons of God is what we're looking for now. But if you're not looking, how will you know?

Blessings,
brian
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