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Old 06-02-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,228 posts, read 14,109,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Therefore showing that Mike could as easily as anyone hear those words.
You are correct. Who is the arbiter?

Luke 9:47 -
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,

1 Sam. 16:7b - ...for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

So Christ knows who is true and who are only mouthing the words.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:02 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,684,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You are correct. Who is the arbiter?

Luke 9:47 - But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,

1 Sam. 16:7b - ...for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

So Christ knows who is true and who are only mouthing the words.

Yes and this is Good News, because that judgment is not about the determination of who is damned forever, it is the assurance that we will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS and be made WHOLE.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,228 posts, read 14,109,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, I personally believe the assurance that God has proclaimed for all mankind.

Mike says "Many people however, profess to believe in Christ, but in reality, they do not."

This could be Mike. Just because he professes to believe, according to his own words, does not mean he does.

So his beliefs, do not really carry any assurance.
1- Again - it is not Mike's theory about some who profess belief but is not true.

2- I just supplied two cases where the Bible says some will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

3- You are right about Mike. He may only profess. However, you are not the judge. I am not the judge. Christ is the judge.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:11 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Mike, I'm a little confused maybe you can help. Let's start with these 2 verses.

John 6:44 -> "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day"

John 15:16 -> ""You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

So if God is responsible for us coming to Him in the first place, why does He choose some to save and others leave in eternal comdemnation?

Is He playing favorites? IF so, then the verse He is no respector of persons is false. Are the comdemned satan seed all along? Please clarify. Thanks.
Calvinism is a heresy. John 15:16 is referring to the fact that Jesus chose the 12 as His apostles. Compare with Luke 6:13, Matthew 10:2-4, Mark 3:13-19, John 15:16, John 6:70 and John 13:18.

God draws man through the Gospel. God chooses all who answer the call of the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

The offer of salvation is extended to all. The reality of salvation belongs to those who receive the offer of salvation by believing the Gospel with reference to Christ. Those who reject the offer remain under eternal condemnation.

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4) who desires all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.

HOWEVER!!!!!...

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because He has not believed in the name of the only begotten (uniquely born) Son of God.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

God offers salvation to all. Those who receive the offer through faith in Christ are eternally saved. Those who reject the offer of salvation remain eternally condemned.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:12 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
2- I just supplied two cases where the Bible says some will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
.
You are assuming that those who do not enter the Kingdom are never saved.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:15 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,684,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
1- Again - it is not Mike's theory about some who profess belief but is not true.

2- I just supplied two cases where the Bible says some will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

3- You are right about Mike. He may only profess. However, you are not the judge. I am not the judge. Christ is the judge.

You supplied what you believe they ultimatly mean, as we all do.

You may be one who does not enter the kingdom as well.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,228 posts, read 14,109,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are assuming that those who do not enter the Kingdom are never saved.
Based on the destinations specified by Jesus in Matt. 25.

Matt. 25:34 - "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Matt. 25:41 - Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:45 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
IMO, this OP is misleading. Because Mike uses Matthew 25:41.

This whole thing from verse 31-46 is talking about JUDGEMENT. So, this is where you should be looking for you answers.

First off we see Jesus on the throne, of a KING. 31

ALL the nations are brought before Him. 32

He then SEPARATES them!! Hear this? Anyone? He separates the NATIONS. Why? 32

Then what happens next?

In verse 33 we see 2 classes of people. Sheep and goats. Sheep on the right and goats on the left.

Who are the SHEEP????

They were righteous. 37
They ARE blessed by the Father Himself!! 34

No one is righteous, no NOT ONE! So how are they made righteous? Through Jesus Christ our LORD!! By His Blood we are made clean, correct?

But, WAIT!!! Is that it? Is it now time to waltz on in?? Is this what Jesus says?

NO!!!!

He then goes on to explain WHY they get to inherit the Kingdom. Why?

Because they WORKED!!

They FED FOOD. They gave WATER. They HOUSED. They CLOTHED. They VISITED!

THIS is WHY!

So, what DID JESUS DO to those who DID NOT and tell me you can sit on your laurals and 'think' you are waltzing right in.

And if you think this is some sort of a analogy, or a parable, then you are sadly mistaken. It is as plain as plain can be. BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM. PERIOD.


Personally, I feel as though there will be a ton of 'goats' who thought they were sheep. But sheep FOLLOW the voice of their Shepherd, and DO what is COMMANDED of them.

What saith you? Are you following or making a path for yourself devouring everything in sight, like a goat? Or being an obedient sheep who is dining with Him?
To the contrary. The issue in salvation is always faith in Christ. Those who believe in Christ have His righteousness and the work they do is acceptable to God. The unbeliever has only his own human righteousness, and his works are always rejected by God. Matthew 25:31-46 is set in the Tribulation. A time of unparalleled distress and tribulation in which most people's love will grow cold.

Matthew 24:9 ''Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name, 10) And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11) And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12) ''And because lawlessness is increased, MOST PEOPLE'S LOVE WILL GROW COLD. 13) But the one who endures to the end (of the tribulation), he shall be saved (he will be physically delivered to go into the Millennial kingdom). Those during the Tribulation who are believers will demonstrate kindness toward others. They are saved not because of their deeds, but because they are believers in Christ. Their deeds, their acts of Kindness reflect the fact that they are believers during that terrible time in human history.

Here is more on the subject...

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,228 posts, read 14,109,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You supplied what you believe they ultimatly mean, as we all do.

You may be one who does not enter the kingdom as well.
I am seated w/ Christ already.

Eph. 2:4-6 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:49 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
To ignore the Word of Jesus and not do as commanded, is an insult to Jesus. To apply doctrines outside of what Jesus gave to us, by sending people to other men's words, and not that of Jesus Himself, is an insult to not only Jesus, but also His Father, who inspired the Word's of Jesus and showed the world the works of the Father through His Son.

Good luck with that!

How do you you reject Jesus as Savior? Read Matthew 25 again, REAL SLOWLY.
Refer to Post #38.
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