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Old 06-02-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Your's is a deliberate refusal to understand the truth. You have shown time and again that you do not understand the principle of grace. You do not understand anything that I have posted on this thread.

You are mistaken that we can go back and forth on this all day because this is my final comment to you.
Its the other way around Mike... you don't seem to understand the principal of grace!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You state that faith is not a work but a decision IS a work.

Which one saves people: The gift and grace of God or their choice and decision to have faith?

IF you make a choice then you are working for your salvation and grace is no longer grace.

What is grace?
Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language
1. (n.) The exercise of love, kindness, mercy, favor; disposition to benefit or serve another; favor bestowed or privilege conferred.
2. (n.) The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor.
3. (n.) The prerogative of mercy exercised by the executive, as pardon.
Bible Dictionary: Grace


Yet you say it is not the favor of God but your choice or decision to believe.

That is completely hogwash and contradicts the NT entirely!

Fact is.. MIKE has no idea who will be saved so he clings to the idea that he, by having faith that he is saved, is saved. Thus those who have faith that they are saved but may not REALLY be saved are kinda at a loss.

If MIKE have full assurance that he was saved then he would not try to justify the fact that others are not!

That is boasting. Saying that someone doesn't have something you have because of the decisions made by that someone or yourself is boasting that you are better off because of what you have done!

If the Lord knows those who are his... then you must be the Lord because you know who isn't and is his as well... judging from your posts!
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:59 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,690,362 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I do not think there is a need for anyone to prove their faith to you. Why not let God judge it?

Your doctrinal beliefs are not my problem, I am pointing out the problem with a specific statement that has been made.

Your doctrine is subject to that statement, mine is as well. I am willing to be subject to that truth.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:08 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7446
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I am so tired of seeing these lies! You have no scripture that shows that "in his humanity is the only person who could satisfy the demands of God's holiness" and furthermore you have not established that the scriptures show God demanding holiness or that "God can save only those who come to him through faith in Christ."

These are things you ASSUME to be true but where is the scripture that shows that God demands holiness... when it is written that no one is righteous (ie holy)! Therefore how is Jesus not included in the fact that not one is righteous.

The whole thing is so obviously man-made that it is a wonder you and others don't see the mess that man has made of scripture.

SO please show your readers the scripture that says "God can save only those" who "could satisfy the demands of God's holiness"

Then I guess in your mind only Christ is saved.
1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, ''You shall be holy, for I am holy.''

The purpose of the Mosiac law was to demonstrate that man CAN'T meet the demands of God's holiness and therefore needs a Savior. Since a slave cannot purchase the freedom of another slave, only a free man can. The penalty for sin could only be paid by a free man. Someone not already under the penalty of sin. Someone not already spiritually dead.

This is why Jesus Christ who being God, had to take the form of a man and come into the world through a virgin birth, to be a substitute for man. Phil 2:5-8

Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God... 14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18 ...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''

The Scriptures have been shown time and time and time yet again, that only those who come to God through faith in Christ can be saved. I will not indulge you here by posting them again.

Christ our Redeemer
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:26 PM
 
964 posts, read 717,859 times
Reputation: 393
Mike, please reply to what katjonjj wrote below but read it carefully first. This really nails it but your not listening. There is a glaring contradiction in your interpretation of grace.

Quote:
Its the other way around Mike... you don't seem to understand the principal of grace!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You state that faith is not a work but a decision IS a work.

Which one saves people: The gift and grace of God or their choice and decision to have faith? <---ESP. THIS PART

IF you make a choice then you are working for your salvation and grace is no longer grace.

What is grace?
Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language
1. (n.) The exercise of love, kindness, mercy, favor; disposition to benefit or serve another; favor bestowed or privilege conferred.
2. (n.) The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor.
3. (n.) The prerogative of mercy exercised by the executive, as pardon.
Bible Dictionary: Grace


Yet you say it is not the favor of God but your choice or decision to believe.

That is completely hogwash and contradicts the NT entirely!

Fact is.. MIKE has no idea who will be saved so he clings to the idea that he, by having faith that he is saved, is saved. Thus those who have faith that they are saved but may not REALLY be saved are kinda at a loss.

If MIKE have full assurance that he was saved then he would not try to justify the fact that others are not!

That is boasting. Saying that someone doesn't have something you have because of the decisions made by that someone or yourself is boasting that you are better off because of what you have done!

If the Lord knows those who are his... then you must be the Lord because you know who isn't and is his as well... judging from your posts!
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,116,987 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, ''You shall be holy, for I am holy.''

The purpose of the Mosiac law was to demonstrate that man CAN'T meet the demands of God's holiness and therefore needs a Savior. Since a slave cannot purchase the freedom of another slave, only a free man can. The penalty for sin could only be paid by a free man. Someone not already under the penalty of sin. Someone not already spiritually dead.

This is why Jesus Christ who being God, had to take the form of a man and come into the world through a virgin birth, to be a substitute for man. Phil 2:5-8

Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God... 14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18 ...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''

The Scriptures have been shown time and time and time yet again, that only those who come to God through faith in Christ can be saved. I will not indulge you here by posting them again.

Christ our Redeemer
Hi Mike555,
I don't disagree with the notion that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

I do however disagree with the notion that God is limited in how far his salvation can reach.
As I've posted elsewhere, READ what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus. He called Jesus "Lord" BEFORE he even knew who he was speaking to! God is able to save to the uttermost. He's not waiting on you and I to "get our act together." He saves whom He will when He wants to.
I am another example, like Saul. I was not interested in the things of God when He freed me of the wickedness I was in. He DREW me to Himself over time, and that is how I got saved, not because of anything I did. I cannot take any glory. It is JESUS who saved me, and He is able to make a people unto Himself from the STONES if He so desires.
HIS will be done, my friend! We all preach, but it's not up to man to save himself. He cannot. He must be called, like Lazarus from the dead, to see the Light.

Christendom worships a God who is very limited, and has, in a very real sense of the word, failed to save the world. God is a failure, according to popular "Christian" doctrine.

Blessings to you,
brian
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:37 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7446
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Its the other way around Mike... you don't seem to understand the principal of grace!

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You state that faith is not a work but a decision IS a work.

Which one saves people: The gift and grace of God or their choice and decision to have faith?

IF you make a choice then you are working for your salvation and grace is no longer grace.

What is grace?
Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language
1. (n.) The exercise of love, kindness, mercy, favor; disposition to benefit or serve another; favor bestowed or privilege conferred.
2. (n.) The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor.
3. (n.) The prerogative of mercy exercised by the executive, as pardon.
Bible Dictionary: Grace


Yet you say it is not the favor of God but your choice or decision to believe.

That is completely hogwash and contradicts the NT entirely!

Fact is.. MIKE has no idea who will be saved so he clings to the idea that he, by having faith that he is saved, is saved. Thus those who have faith that they are saved but may not REALLY be saved are kinda at a loss.

If MIKE have full assurance that he was saved then he would not try to justify the fact that others are not!

That is boasting. Saying that someone doesn't have something you have because of the decisions made by that someone or yourself is boasting that you are better off because of what you have done!

If the Lord knows those who are his... then you must be the Lord because you know who isn't and is his as well... judging from your posts!
To the contrary. Faith is not a work as Ephesians 2:8,9 demonstrates. As does the following...

John 6:27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal. 28) They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do to, that we may do the works of God?'' 29) Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''

Jesus did a play on words. The people had asked Jesus what works (plural) they had to do to be saved. In turn, Jesus replied, that the work (singular) of God is to believe. In other words, believing is not works.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on Him.

Those who believe in Christ for salvation are saved. Those who die having rejected Christ as Savior are eternally lost. So says the word of the living God.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:46 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7446
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Mike555,
I don't disagree with the notion that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

I do however disagree with the notion that God is limited in how far his salvation can reach.
As I've posted elsewhere, READ what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus. He called Jesus "Lord" BEFORE he even knew who he was speaking to! God is able to save to the uttermost. He's not waiting on you and I to "get our act together." He saves whom He will when He wants to.
I am another example, like Saul. I was not interested in the things of God when He freed me of the wickedness I was in. He DREW me to Himself over time, and that is how I got saved, not because of anything I did. I cannot take any glory. It is JESUS who saved me, and He is able to make a people unto Himself from the STONES if He so desires.
HIS will be done, my friend! We all preach, but it's not up to man to save himself. He cannot. He must be called, like Lazarus from the dead, to see the Light.

Christendom worships a God who is very limited, and has, in a very real sense of the word, failed to save the world. God is a failure, according to popular "Christian" doctrine.

Blessings to you,
brian
Again, Calvinism is a heresy. God knew that Saul would believe when he saw the resurrected Christ. He didn't force him to believe. God is only limited in that He can not act contrary to His Nature. The demands of His holiness must be met before anyone can be saved. The demands of His holiness are met in Jesus Christ. Therefore, anyone who believes in Christ is saved. And anyone who doesn't remains eternally lost. God provides the Gospel. Man must make the decision to believe or not. Saul finally got the message when he saw the resurrected Christ, and he believed.

God desires that ALL men be saved. Yet, all men are not saved. It is a matter of each individual using his God given free will to choose for or against Christ. And yet again, Calvinism is a heresy. It is not Biblical.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,116,987 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, Calvinism is a heresy. God knew that Saul would believe when he saw the resurrected Christ. He didn't force him to believe. God is only limited in that He can not act contrary to His Nature. The demands of His holiness must be met before anyone can be saved. The demands of His holiness are met in Jesus Christ. Therefore, anyone who believes in Christ is saved. And anyone who doesn't remains eternally lost. God provides the Gospel. Man must make the decision to believe or not. Saul finally got the message when he saw the resurrected Christ, and he believed.

God desires that ALL men be saved. Yet, all men are not saved. It is a matter of each individual using his God given free will to choose for or against Christ. And yet again, Calvinism is a heresy. It is not Biblical.
Hi Mike555,
I'm not a calvinist. I simply believe in a God who is working all things according to His will. God made the waster to destroy. He makes the rich and poor, seeing and blind. He hardens whom He will. We are the clay, and the clay is worked by the potters hands. That includes you, my friend!

You say that God desires all to be saved, but His desires will not be fulfilled.
Remember, that God knows the man He created very, very, very well. He's not agitated about things getting out of control, because they have never been out of control. That's because He's God.
He made man a sinner in order to have mercy upon him. No one is righteous, Mike, neither you nor I. You too, were lost one time. Don't forget that.

Without Him, we are totally lost. Totally.

Blessings to you,
brian
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,293 posts, read 14,153,226 times
Reputation: 10133
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I am so tired of seeing these lies! You have no scripture that shows that "in his humanity is the only person who could satisfy the demands of God's holiness" and furthermore you have not established that the scriptures show God demanding holiness or that "God can save only those who come to him through faith in Christ."

These are things you ASSUME to be true but where is the scripture that shows that God demands holiness... when it is written that no one is righteous (ie holy)! Therefore how is Jesus not included in the fact that not one is righteous.

The whole thing is so obviously man-made that it is a wonder you and others don't see the mess that man has made of scripture.

SO please show your readers the scripture that says "God can save only those" who "could satisfy the demands of God's holiness"

Then I guess in your mind only Christ is saved.
Your last sentence is on target. The thing is, when we believe, we become one with Christ - and we are saved because of our union with Him. Which goes back to 1 John 5 - if you have the Son, you have the life...

You have the Son, when you receive the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13, Rom. 8:11)

You get the Spirit when you believe. (John 7:38, Eph. 1:13)
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:59 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7446
I have presented the facts regarding the necessity of believing in Christ for salvation. Some will listen. Many will not. The usual objecters on this forum have voiced their rejection of what is plainly declared in the word of God. Since they will not listen, let them then remain as they are. My responsibilty is to present the truth. That I have done. I am not going to keep going back and forth with those who won't and don't want to listen.
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