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Old 06-02-2010, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So do you believe that Christ is sacrificed again and again every time someone 'decides' to get saved? I would hope not! The point was that sin was paid for by ONE death ONCE AND FOR ALL... yet you are saying it is for some and not others.

And you capped the last statement... So not only did God sacrifice himself to himself but afterward he sat down beside himself as well...

If I were God listening to this, I would be BESIDE MYSELF TOO!
Actually, the NASB make references to OT quotes by using CAPS. That was not me.

I have said before in numerous other threads that Christ's death pays the sin debt for everyone. The payment has been made so that all that is needed for salvation is our faith - and God sending us the Holy Spirit in response to our faith. No other payment is necessary for salvation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet it is extremely clear in John that Christ is God... right? Yet those who HEARD this before it was written down didn't get it? They didn't know that they were speaking to God himself in human form? How did they miss that?

Perhaps because they would have stoned Christ themselves if he had claimed to be God in the flesh? It was not part of their culture to entertain the idea of God becoming human.
You will have to read the gospels for that. There are places like the parables where Jesus asks them if they understand. They say yes - but not really. Jesus rebukes Satan in Peter when He told Him about His upcoming death. Jesus' death did not sink in to Peter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
God IS incorruptible by nature and definition! How then does it make sense that the flesh he inhabited was corruptible? How could he have taken on corruption as God? What is the point?

What is the point God is trying to make in sacrificing himself to himself so that he can sit beside himself?

Other questions keep coming to mind. But I wanted to also thank you because you seem to be willing to answer these questions. So Thanks!
You do realize there are two different beings here - God, the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ.

When 2 Cor. 5:19 says - God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - this is a spiritual connection facilitated by the presence of the Holy Spirit in Jesus. Remember the Holy Spirit came in to Jesus at His water baptism. Even though God was still in heaven - He spoke that He was pleased with His Son at the baptism - they were spiritually connected.

The same spiritual connection occurs in believers. When we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit which joins us to the body of Christ so that we are one with Him. It is this link with Christ that gains believers entry into heaven.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I do not deny that Jesus came in the flesh. That would be the anti-Christ spirit. Basically saying that we have no Savior that can redeem us from the dead. No hope, pretty much, which can do an awful lot of damage to people's souls. Without hope the people perish (old testament verse).

So, whether he was part of some trinity, or just some kind of entity that God's spirit rested on to save the world, I don't know. I do not believe that he was just some guy out to show some love. I think the Jews were extremely angry for a reason (spiritual reasons, mostly).
I agree with all of this.

I think the Jews were angry because they thought a man not yet fifty could not possibly understand God and God's will more than they could...
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Actually, the NASB make references to OT quotes by using CAPS. That was not me.

I have said before in numerous other threads that Christ's death pays the sin debt for everyone. The payment has been made so that all that is needed for salvation is our faith - and God sending us the Holy Spirit in response to our faith. No other payment is necessary for salvation.
There is no other payment but the one that was already made.

I didn't realize the caps were not yours... so sorry... IF Christ's death paid (past tense) the debt for everyone.. why is that not enough??

So what part saves people? The act on the cross or the faith they have?

Quote:
You will have to read the gospels for that. There are places like the parables where Jesus asks them if they understand. They say yes - but not really. Jesus rebukes Satan in Peter when He told Him about His upcoming death. Jesus' death did not sink in to Peter.
I just said that if they didn't understand that Jesus was God... why should we? According to the last sentence in John there was MUCH more that Jesus said and did that was not recorded. So they had even MORE information than we do and yet they still didn't recognize GOD?

The premise for belief in the trinity and Jesus being God is that it was necessary per the OT.. yet even the ones Jesus (er God) spoke to directly didn't even understand or comprehend that Jesus is God.. How is that? Don't you think if we can see evidence (real or imagined) in the bible that Jesus is God and God is 3 in 1 then the disciples would have been privy to that?

Not that you have claimed this but it has been claimed.

Quote:
You do realize there are two different beings here - God, the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ.
I realize it. One was human and one is spirit. One is Father, one is Son. I totally understand that... I am speaking as if Jesus is God then God (the 1 that is the whole of the 3) sacrificed himself to himself and sat down at his own right hand.

Quote:
When 2 Cor. 5:19 says - God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - this is a spiritual connection facilitated by the presence of the Holy Spirit in Jesus. Remember the Holy Spirit came in to Jesus at His water baptism. Even though God was still in heaven - He spoke that He was pleased with His Son at the baptism - they were spiritually connected.
Yes..
Quote:
The same spiritual connection occurs in believers. When we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit which joins us to the body of Christ so that we are one with Him. It is this link with Christ that gains believers entry into heaven.
OK.. I get that. So Jesus had the SAME spiritual connection to God (through the spirit of God, HS) that believers have today. How does that make Christ any different in his "oneness" to God than those believers who are one with God spiritually.

I appreciate your help in the explanation.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:20 PM
 
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"No one at any time hath seen God."
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"No one at any time hath seen God."
Ex. 24:11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

"Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God!"



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Old 06-02-2010, 06:58 PM
 
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Exo 24:11 To the selectmen of the sons of Israel He put not forth His hand, yet they perceived the One, Elohim, and ate and drank.

The One, Elohim could have been Jesus and not the Invisible Deity filling heaven and earth.

Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,

"Eloah" in the Hebrew is the form for the Christ or Jesus if you will.

"Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God!"

They will see God in the miracles and words and actions of Christ.

"He who has seen Me hath seen the Father" by His words and acts and miracles.


Last edited by Eusebius; 06-02-2010 at 07:09 PM..
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Washington State
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I agree with all of this.

I think the Jews were angry because they thought a man not yet fifty could not possibly understand God and God's will more than they could...

I guess my husband would agree with you on that.

Here is a ramble for you:

I'm guessing that this trinity thing is way out there. I think God sent somebody down here to get his kingdoms back (not that he truly lost them), just like he said. Not my will, but thine. The kingdoms BECOME his again. He knew the adversary would accuse us after we "fell." The price was paid: Death. Christ paid it for ALL and now he is going to get his kingdoms back. God put it all into motion for a reason.

The adversary thinks he is in control, but God is always one step ahead, doing things his way. God stuck him here with us to tempt us, as he knew he would, and he knew the accuser would accuse. Not a problem, though. He's
got the death thing covered. And so it goes. God's plan works; he let's the adversary thinks he has "free will," just like he lets humans think that, but he
is ALWAYS In control.

Last edited by herefornow; 06-02-2010 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I cannot find one reason, in scripture, for God to come down as a human.
Phil. 2:5-8 - Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Phil. 2:5-8 - Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Yes, without ceasing to be God, He became a human being, Jesus. He did not give up His deity to become human, but He set aside His right to His glory and power.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Phil. 2:5-8 - Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Yes I have seen this verse before... I personally read it differently...

First.. after studying the Greek with my limited knowledge I see that grasped is not the best translation of the word... I would have to agree with the KJV which normally is not the best translation due to the old english used.. but nonetheless, harpagmos is the word translated as grasped when the meaning is truly to plunder (properly concrete) or robbery. By using 'grasped' the NASB makes it seem like it was not understood when really it was more about stealing equality. How does God (if Jesus is God) even steal equality when he is God? Can God steal from himself?

That one line reveals that if Jesus is God then the sentence makes no sense. He existed in the likeness of God (having the power and glory of God) and the likeness of man (human nature). This doesn't mean he was God but far from it. It means that he was obedient to God to the point of death... now how can God being obedient to God make sense?

So, IMO, this verse proves that at least Paul didn't think Jesus was God or he wouldn't think Jesus could steal equality.

There are other points to that scripture but I will leave it at that.
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