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Old 06-03-2010, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
If you think of a kidnapping - the bad guys want ransom. So somebody pays the money. The debt is paid. The transaction is not complete until the kidnapped person is given back to its own people.

Christ's death paid the ransom sin debt for all people.

Col. 2:14 - having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So individually, the transaction needs to be completed. How do we get back to a right status w/ God? Even though our sins have been paid for, our personal status has not changed. We are still of Adam, born in the flesh with a sin nature - and if we have a sin nature, we will be separated from God.
I don't see it quite the same way and I realize this is going off topic a bit but as a URer... I don't mind LOL.

You seem to stop applying your analogy. I mean that once you established the analogy for the ransom then you never say how the people have to be exchanged correlates to having faith/belief to complete the transaction. See in your analogy it is the captor who releases the captives. In your explanation one imagines the captor saying, "you are free" and they just mill around not leaving. Yet that would never happen in a real kidnapping, would it? It is as if the captor accepts the ransom and then refuses to return the captives until they leave themselves. Does that make sense?

So to be true to the analogy the captor would release the captive and the captive would be free. God as the captor releases the captive and the captive is free. There is no need to believe you are free... I guess you can just mill around because you don't believe you are free to go.. but that doesn't affect the actual freedom, does it?


Quote:
Both are needed. Without Christ's death and resurrection, the ransom would never be paid.

Rom. 6:23a - The wages of sin is death.

So if Christ doesn't pay, we pay individually with our death.
But don't we die anyway? So every time someone physically dies they pay for their sins.. right? So what did Jesus pay for?

Quote:
Now Eph. 2:4 above said that God made us alive. How?

Eph. 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

By [God's] grace... through faith - and the faith is not our own. We see that in Jesus' statement here
What do you mean it is not our own faith? Didn't you say that you must act saved and believe and have your own faith in order to be saved?

Quote:
John 6:29 - This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

This is the beginning point for us in heading back towards God. It's through His work that we hear the gospel and believe.

Why faith?

Rom. 4:16 - For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

#1 - It's in accordance with grace. Grace is free. Faith is also free. This is in contrast to fulfilling the law, which is not free, but is works.

#2 - It's in accordance with the faith of Abraham. He was promised numerous descendants from all nations because he believed in God - and he was credited w/ righteousness.

#3 - Our faith is the criteria necessary for God to send us the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

John 7:39 - But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive

This is what makes us alive (from Eph. 2:4 above). The presence of the Spirit is what links us to Christ.

Rom. 8:11 - But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He [God] who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Cor. 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

Gal. 3:14 - in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It is His presence in us that allows us entry into heaven. It's His righteousness.

Col. 3:3-4 -
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Rom. 6:5 - For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection

Hopefully this makes sense.
It makes sense and I would agree with what you conclude EXCEPT.... I think this all applies to this life not after death. IOW - I think Jesus meant that to continue to sin you retain guilt which causes you to resemble being dead without a life. Think of a drug addict who actually looks dead in some cases. So when Jesus says you can have life, he means just that. Then when it is said that believers are lifted up or entering into the kingdom of heaven I believe that is having life more abundantly.

Hope that makes sense... Probably should tie this into God sacrificing himself but...
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,201 posts, read 14,096,059 times
Reputation: 10089
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You seem to stop applying your analogy. I mean that once you established the analogy for the ransom then you never say how the people have to be exchanged correlates to having faith/belief to complete the transaction. See in your analogy it is the captor who releases the captives. In your explanation one imagines the captor saying, "you are free" and they just mill around not leaving. Yet that would never happen in a real kidnapping, would it? It is as if the captor accepts the ransom and then refuses to return the captives until they leave themselves. Does that make sense?

So to be true to the analogy the captor would release the captive and the captive would be free. God as the captor releases the captive and the captive is free. There is no need to believe you are free... I guess you can just mill around because you don't believe you are free to go.. but that doesn't affect the actual freedom, does it?
Adam and the sin nature is the kidnapper. Christ and the new nature is trying to get us back.

Christ's death paid the ransom.

Faith and the reception of the Spirit provides the transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

Col. 1:12-14 - giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Adam and the sin nature is the kidnapper. Christ and the new nature is trying to get us back.

Christ's death paid the ransom.

Faith and the reception of the Spirit provides the transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

Col. 1:12-14 - giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
Yet the verse actually states that he rescued (past tense) and transferred (past tense) but nothing about having to be transferred themselves.

You said that it is the sin nature that is the kidnapper, however the ransom didn't go to sin nature... did it? Rather, the ransom went to God didn't it? So really your analogy didn't work very well or there is something wrong with your explanation.

I don't necessarily believe that we are transferred automatically but then that analogy just doesn't work. The kingdom of Christ may require belief. In fact I would say it does... however, would you agree that the kingdom has authority over all people?

Also would you believe that some still remain in darkness even though they don't have to?

So does their freedom depend on what they do or God? And is salvation freedom to you? or is salvation simply entrance to a good afterlife?

Thanks for a great conversation!
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Old 06-03-2010, 11:43 AM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Adam and the sin nature is the kidnapper. Christ and the new nature is trying to get us back.

Christ's death paid the ransom.

Faith and the reception of the Spirit provides the transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

Col. 1:12-14 - giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet the verse actually states that he rescued (past tense) and transferred (past tense) but nothing about having to be transferred themselves.

You said that it is the sin nature that is the kidnapper, however the ransom didn't go to sin nature... did it? Rather, the ransom went to God didn't it? So really your analogy didn't work very well or there is something wrong with your explanation.

I don't necessarily believe that we are transferred automatically but then that analogy just doesn't work. The kingdom of Christ may require belief. In fact I would say it does... however, would you agree that the kingdom has authority over all people?

Also would you believe that some still remain in darkness even though they don't have to?

So does their freedom depend on what they do or God? And is salvation freedom to you? or is salvation simply entrance to a good afterlife?

Thanks for a great conversation!
I enjoyed the discussion as well, DRob and kat. The kingdom of darkness was our consciousnesses prior to the arrival of Jesus. There was NO connection to God directly. After Jesus' rebirth as Spirit (resurrection). . . the product of ALL human consciousnesses attained permanent connection to God consciousness (that includes ALL those who lived before Jesus and ALL those to live after). It is that connection to God that enables redemption and forgiveness of sins (through Jesus or refinement by God's consuming fire). I know . . . you're tired of hearing my unorthodox views . . . but they make BOTH your positions equivalent.
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 878,484 times
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we were kidnapped before we were born, if you want to use the kidnapping explanation. We were born into slavery because of the actions of another. We had no say in the matter, we don't even know that we are children of the king until the evidence is right before our eyes. One day we recognize that our true Father has paid the price to REDEEM us from this slavery and then we walk away. But most don't even know they are in bondage to sin so they scoff at the offer of redemption. We have to be SHOWN the condition we are living in.

Then there's the JUBILLEE, but that's another part of the issue.
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:39 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Adam and the sin nature is the kidnapper. Christ and the new nature is trying to get us back.
Is that what the Bible says? Can you quote the exact verse?

Quote:
Christ's death paid the ransom.
Yes indeed! And one who is ransomed must be freed.

Quote:
Faith and the reception of the Spirit provides the transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.
Yes, but this is beyond what the ransom does for all mankind. Faith is given only to those God has chosen to the blessed life in the coming ages. The rest of the ransomed must come later.

Quote:
Col. 1:12-14 -
Quote:
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
Indeed! What a wonderful day that will be!
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
we were kidnapped before we were born, if you want to use the kidnapping explanation. We were born into slavery because of the actions of another. We had no say in the matter, we don't even know that we are children of the king until the evidence is right before our eyes. One day we recognize that our true Father has paid the price to REDEEM us from this slavery and then we walk away. But most don't even know they are in bondage to sin so they scoff at the offer of redemption. We have to be SHOWN the condition we are living in.

Then there's the JUBILLEE, but that's another part of the issue.

Perfect. Thanks, ScarletWren. ( I am working on my understanding of the Jubliee. Has anybody started a thread on this before that you know of?)
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 878,484 times
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God's Kingdom Ministry - The Year of Jubilee

Here's a pretty good two-part explanation of the Jubilee. I don't read all the threads so not sure if it's ever been a topic of discussion before.
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
God's Kingdom Ministry - The Year of Jubilee

Here's a pretty good two-part explanation of the Jubilee. I don't read all the threads so not sure if it's ever been a topic of discussion before.
Thank you.
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,473 times
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If a god is offended at men, how could men appease that, if man is the offender? The problem is that god has eternal characteristics; he produces himself without aid from another (the christian god concept) and man has temporal (we all know this one, well except for congressmen); how could temporal characteristics (having nothing or processing nothing and totally dependent on others) satisfy eternal characteristics (having or possessing all and not dependent), especially in that what is temporal is already produced through the eternal-what is temporal has to be produced by something else (god "owns" everything so men have absolutely nothing to give-even their breath is on loan, as it says somewhere)? When god creates, that which is not god is an offense (perfection/imperfection) before him. Something has to block the wrath for the temporal to still have becoming (it does not truly exist except as "moments" {past and future are no longer and not yet}-the need for the doctrine of providence; of course no one likes doctrine now, so everything is muddled and reasons lack for everything as everyone relies on their "heart", ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, how warm), that is why the bible refers to the blood shed before the foundation of the world and adam implies red dirt. God himself, in the christian scheme, must provide the "block" as only his "block", produced by himself (to avoid the temporal block), and as he does not share his glory with another (says so somewhere)-that is all that withholds his complete wrath and the return of the temporal to complete nothingness.
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