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Old 06-04-2010, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Germany
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If that is true, then it sounds like UR is more in line with the Quran than with Bible based Christianity.
you are twisting my words, the Quran as I understand it teaches by implication that people might be delivered from hell, not that it will actually happen, it just leaves the possibility open that it might happen, whereas in "orthodox christianity" there is no chance of deliverance from hell. The Bible however clearly teaches the salvation of all men, not only by implication and nowhere in the Bible is the endlessness of future punishment affirmed.

Concerning "eternity", see here

The Quran has many elements taken over from the Bible and extrabiblical sources, both Christian and Jewish, if universalism were part of the Quran, then it would most likely be taken from the Bible.
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
you are twisting my words,
I am not twisting your words, I drew my own conclusion based on your comment. That's why I said "if this is true, then...".
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Germany
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I am not twisting your words, I drew my own conclusion based on your comment.
if you think so, you are not familiar with the biblical teaching of "universalism"

"biblical universalism" is not merely a teaching that the worst sinner is sent to heaven (without judgment) or that hell is simply not endless (annihilationists agree with this, though they are definitly no universalists) or that some people might have a second chance after death or that there is a purgatory for bad believers.

"biblical universalism" as I understand it, is the teaching that all men (and angelic beings) are saved, judged and restored to goodness by the will and grace of God and the work of Christ.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
"biblical universalism" as I understand it, is the teaching that all men (and angelic beings) are saved, judged and restored to goodness by the will and grace of God and the work of Christ.
ok, and this is what you said about Quran:

interestingly, even the Quran might not teach the absolute endlessness of punishment in hell, the Arab word for "eternity" seems to be equally ambiguous as the biblical words

See what I mean?

But if you consider Bible ambiguous, then how can you be sure it supports your view?
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Germany
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But if you consider Bible ambiguous, then how can you be sure it supports your view?
I was refering to the terms that have been translated "eternity", "everlasting" etc., they are at at least ambiguous, this does not so much affect universalism as it affects the doctrine of eternal torment, when the word translated "eternal" most likely never had this meaning; on the other hand, that God is the savior all men is stated very plainly and unambiguous (1 Tim. 4:10).

check it for yourself:

olam has been translated with world, time and eternity

aion has been translated with age, time and eternity

time and eternity are the very antitheses of each other, yet these terms are said to have both these meanings.

If this isn't ambiguous, what then would you call ambiguous? - The word translated savior, has been translated "savior" in all instances, there is little controversy about the meaning of this word.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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I find it strange that the land in which He came to us is now Muslim. Makes you wonder how God looks at them.

Probably differently than we do - because God is different than us.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I was refering to the terms that have been translated "eternity", "everlasting" etc., they are at at least ambiguous, this does not so much affect universalism as it affects the doctrine of eternal torment, when the word translated "eternal" most likely never had this meaning; on the other hand, that God is the savior all men is stated very plainly and unambiguous (1 Tim. 4:10).

check it for yourself:.
Thanks. I have already checked, and eternity means eternity.

And yes, God is saviour of all men. All you gotta do is allow him to save you.

PS. Since there is no such thing as eternity, then how long will you be in heaven until you seize to exist?
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Thanks. I have already checked, and eternity means eternity.
of course does eternity mean eternity, but the bible was not written in English, can you prove that Hebrew "olam" or Greek "aion" means "eternity"?, can you prove that "eternity" is endless?

The Latin bible contains following verse, Daniel 12:3

qui autem docti fuerint fulgebunt quasi splendor firmamenti et qui ad iustitiam erudiunt multos quasi stellae in perpetuas aeternitates

in perpetuas aeternitates literally means "in perpetual eternities", if there is more than one eternity, eternity cannot be endless.

Wycliffe, who translated the bible from Latin into English, renders it:

Forsothe thei that ben tauyt, schulen schyne as the schynyng of the firmament, and thei that techen many men to riytfulnesse, schulen schyne as sterris in to euerlastynge euerlastyngnessis.

everlasting everlastingnesses, there cannot be several endlessnesses

Quote:
PS. Since there is no such thing as eternity, then how long will you be in heaven until you seize to exist?
the bible says death will exist no longer and God will be all in all, if there is no more death, the perpetuity of the future life is not dependent from the existence of "eternity"

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Old 06-04-2010, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
of course does eternity mean eternity, but the bible was not written in English, can you prove that Hebrew "olam" or Greek "aion" means "eternity"?
Yes, I have on a number of occations.



Quote:
the bible says death will exist no longer and God will be all in all, if there is no more death, the perpetuity of the future life is not dependent from the existence of "eternity"


There is no death in hell either, sooooo......
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Germany
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There is no death in hell either, sooooo......
How then can the wages of sin be death, if death basically does not exist at all?

Quote:
Yes, I have on a number of occations.
could you share these occasions? However the fact that olam/aion is applied to God, does not prove it is intended to mean "eternal", also see here

Quote:
If it‘s now possible to demonstrate that the Scripture obviously used the words for "eternal" and "eternity" in the same sentence once applied to something that by its nature can only thought to be infinite and the other time on something that by its nature can never be thought infinite, then Augustine’s conclusion can only be considered as unscriptural.

Let’s look upon two Bible words, the one is written in Romans 16:25-26, …according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal (aiōnios) times, but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōnios) God…

There is no need for scholarliness to recognize that times in their nature can never be infinite or eternal, but they are obvious with the same word designated that is used to denote the eternal God. On the other hand no one needs to prove that God in his nature can only thought of being infinite.

If Augustine had used the same logic here as in Matthew 25:46, then he could have said, if the times called eternal here were not infinite - then God called eternal here is not infinite too - a blatant fallacy.

We have a similar example in Titus 1:2 (also 2Tim 1:9) …on hope of eternal (aiōnios) life which the God who does not lie promised before eternal (aiōnios) timesIf there is a linguistic term that is fundamentally different from infinity, then it is "time" or "times". Nevertheless are they called "eternal" (aiōnios), a striking proof that this adjective itself is not suitable to denote infinity.

All adjectives that refer to God and His life get their true meaning from there, but not the way round. Wherever the word translated "eternal" (Greek: aiōnios - aeonian or age-long), refers to creature, men or mere human conditions or circumstances it never has the sense of infinity cause nothing creatural can be thought of being infinite, unless it partook in the divine nature of divine life and entity.
btw I begin appreciate our discussion, you appear to be more rational than many others concerning this subject
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