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View Poll Results: Is worshipping Jesus idolotry?
No, Jesus is God and man so it is not idolatry. 8 61.54%
No, worshipping Jesus is worshipping his God part. 1 7.69%
Yes, Jesus was a man therefore it is idolatry to worship him. 4 30.77%
Yes, Jesus although God-man is still a man and it is idolatry. 0 0%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-27-2018, 05:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I know that it was the writer of Hebrews, and clearly stated that it was in post #94. But he has God the Father saying those things to the Son which means that the writer of Hebrews understood that Jesus is Yahweh because the verses he quoted from Psalms are addressed to Yahweh but he applies them to the Son.
Many verses are applied to God and yet another actually says or does the work. Found throughout scripture. They are not equated with God. Faulty argument.
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The term elohim refers to a variety of inhabitants of the spiritual realm. Angels, demons, the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel are all referred to as elohim. In English we use the term 'god.' While Yahweh is also an Elohim, there is no other elohim like Yahweh.

But the writer of Hebrews quoted Old Testament passages which referred to Yahweh and applied those passages to Jesus, thus equating Jesus with Yahweh. See post #94.

Greek Grammar scholar Dan Wallace disagrees with you regarding the Genitive.

The Genitive does not always indicate possession, but has other uses. There are different kinds of Genitives. Dan Wallace classifies the Genitive in Col. 1:15 as a Genitive of Subordination [over], which specifies that which is subordinated to or under the dominion of the head noun.

Quoting Dan Wallace commenting specifically on Colossians 1:15 and the word 'firstborn',
Col 1:15
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
Though some regard this gen. to be partitive (thus, firstborn who is a part of creation), both due to the lexical field of ''firstborn'' including ''preeminent over''⁸⁷ (and not just a literal chronological birth order) and the following causal clause (''for [ὅτι] in him all things were created'') which makes little sense if mere chronological order is in view, it is far more likely that ths expresses subordination. Further, although most examples of subordination involve a verbal head noun, not all do (notice 2 Cor 4:4 above, as well as Acts 13:17). The resultant meaning seems to be an early confession of Christ's lordship and hence, implicitly, his deity.
87 Cf. the theological statements to this effect in 1 Chron 5:1; Ps 89:27; Rom 8:29; Rev 1:5

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 104

And,
Col 1:15
ὅς ἐστιν. . . πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
who is. . . the firstborn with reference to all creation
The other possibilities are partitive and subordination. If this were partitive, the idea would be that Christ was part of creation, i.e. a created being. But Paul makes it clear throughout this epistle that Jesus Christ is the supreme Creator, God in the flesh-e.g., cf. 1;15a, 2:9. In the section to which this verse is found, 1:9-20, he could hardly be more emphatic about the deity of his Lord.¹⁵¹ However, a gen. of subordination is, in all probability, the best option (see discussion of this text earlier).
151 One of the arguments for Christ's deity being affirmed here is that this is a hymn (1:15-20). Hymns were sung to deities, not mere mortals. Cf., e.g., R. T. France, ''The Worship of Jesus-A Neglected Factor in Christological Debate?'' VE 12 (1981) 19-33.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p.128

Jesus is not a part of creation, but is ruler over all of creation.

Colossians 1:16 says that Jesus created all things.

And John 1:3 states that all things came into being through him. Through the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus), and that apart from Him, nothing came into being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Please provide any verse where "firstborn" and the genitive are used that is not involving being part of the group? Being preeminent can be a part of the meaning, but it never indicates the one so described is not a part of the group he is preeminent over. Wallace is dodging the issue and you accept it. The "Firstborn" is always viewed as preeminent AND part of a group. Chronological order is not always present, but the subject is still always part of the group. Sentence structure and contextual use is critical and in this case ignored to fit a theology, not grammar.


Please any verse where such does not exist.
Take it up with Daniel Wallace. I've quoted him with regard to Colossians 1:15 and the Genitive. And, no, he is not dodging the issue.

And while the quote below is referring to the English Genitive, it applies to the Greek Genitive as well.
''The biggest issue English learners have with the "genetive case" is that it's not always used to show possession. It can be used to show a relationship between things.''

https://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/casepossgen.html
In other words, the Genitive does not always imply being part of a group.

Now, Jesus is both God and man. As a man, Jesus is firstborn among the dead (Revelation 1:5). He is the first to be resurrected never to die again. But as God, as the eternal Word, He has always existed and thus is not a created being.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-27-2018 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Many verses are applied to God and yet another actually says or does the work. Found throughout scripture. They are not equated with God. Faulty argument.
What I said, and what the writer of Hebrews wrote when he quoted the Psalms is that verses which refer to Yahweh in the Psalms are applied to Jesus by the writer of Hebrews, thus equating Jesus with Yahweh.
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it doesn't. Hebrews chapter one distinguishes Jesus from the created angels and shows His superiority over them. It states that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father's glory. That is not the case with any created angel.

As for verse 9, I'll quote F. F. Bruce.
But who are the Messiah's ''companions,'' whose joy is thus surpassed by his? In reference to a king of David's line they might be kings of neighboring nations, or members of his own family and court. In the present context, however, the term must have a special meaning---unless we say that our author has simply allowed the quotation to run on without attaching any particular significance to its closing words, which is improbable. The angels cannot be intended; their inferiority to the Son is so insisted on here that they could scarcely be described as his ''companions.'' It is most likely that the reference is to ''the many sons'' of 2:10, whom the firstborn Son is not ashamed to call his ''brothers'' (2:11) and who are designated in 3:14 as the Messiah's metochoi (''partners'')---the same Greek word as is here translated ''companions. There joy is great because of their companionship with him, but his is greater still. [Bolding mine]

The Epistle to the Hebrews, F. F. Bruce, p.61
It was already shown in post #102 that 'firstborn' in Col. 1:15 refers to Jesus' preeminence over creation. Not to being the first created being.

100% for sure-- It is not God speaking at Proverbs 8. The only other being ever to be listened to is Jesus--He is the being speaking at Prov 8. He is the being who was sent by God-- The one whom he created all other things through--Gods master worker. But he is the firstborn. He tells you so at Prov 8. If your mind wasn't fed an illusion already and you read Prov 8 and knew who Jesus was You would know it is him. Without any doubt. All evidence points to Michael.
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
100% for sure-- It is not God speaking at Proverbs 8. The only other being ever to be listened to is Jesus--He is the being speaking at Prov 8. He is the being who was sent by God-- The one whom he created all other things through--Gods master worker. But he is the firstborn. He tells you so at Prov 8. If your mind wasn't fed an illusion already and you read Prov 8 and knew who Jesus was You would know it is him. Without any doubt. All evidence points to Michael.
Again, 'firstborn' does not always refer to birth order, but to pre-eminence. This has already been addressed. Bringing it up over and over doesn't change that fact. The pre-incarnate Word is not a created being.

The Father sent the Son. Both the Father and the Son . . . and the Holy Spirit, are God.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I understand and read English just fine.

In Hebrews chapter one, God the Father is addressing the Son and calls the Son God.

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He (God the Father) says, Your throne O God...''

God then says of the Son in verse 10,
''You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.

God the Father calls the Son God and states that it was the Son who created the heavens and the earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Actually, that was the writer of Hebrews, not God. And the Pharisee's accused Jesus of saying the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I know that it was the writer of Hebrews, and clearly stated that it was in post #94. But he has God the Father saying those things to the Son which means that the writer of Hebrews understood that Jesus is Yahweh because the verses he quoted from Psalms are addressed to Yahweh but he applies them to the Son.
I understand and can appreciate that your "heart is stirred by the noble theme of the Psalm," but that does not make Jesus a God. I resemble my father in many ways, and I even have the title that he has or had but that doesn't make me him. However, it is comforting to hear and know that I have the heart of my father. Although I would never profess to be him, nor did Jesus profess to be God or a God. Especially, one of three in the form of a Trinity of Gods.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I understand and can appreciate that your "heart is stirred by the noble theme of the Psalm," but that does not make Jesus a God. I resemble my father in many ways, and I even have the title that he has or had but that doesn't make me him. However, it is comforting to hear and know that I have the heart of my father. Although I would never profess to be him, nor did Jesus profess to be God or a God. Especially, one of three in the form of a Trinity of Gods.
Since Jesus is plainly stated to be God, not a god, but God, your argument is meaningless. John 1:1 states that the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Since Jesus is plainly stated to be God, not a god, but God, your argument is meaningless. John 1:1 states that the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The origin of the Trinity is entirely pagan, but then again, you follow a syncretistic belief system.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The origin of the Trinity is entirely pagan, but then again, you follow a syncretistic belief system.
No, it is not. All you ever do is make unsupported claims and assertions which is meaningless. You can't even make an intelligent argument. Don't waste my time.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The origin of the Trinity is entirely pagan, but then again, you follow a syncretistic belief system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it is not. All you ever do is make unsupported claims and assertions which is meaningless. You can't even make an intelligent argument. Don't waste my time.
You have dug that hole so deep, no one is going to pull you out.
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