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Old 06-05-2010, 03:58 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 457,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I guess that's where we differ. Jesus told Peter He was going to build His Church. (I don't think He was talking about a building, but I do think He was talking about a specific organization patterned after the one Paul described, which historically did exist in the early years after Christ's death. If Jesus had just wanted us to love God and our neighbors as ourselves, He wouldn't have spoken about building a Church and He wouldn['t have given Peter the keys of authority to lead that Church. He wouldn't have called and ordained people to serve in the capacities they did. He'd have simply left us with His message and told us to follow it. But the Bible clearly describes an organizational Church, congregations which operated under the watchful eyes of the Apostles.

I'll tell you what I really think. I think that most people just say to themselves, "Well, there are no longer prophets and apostles, so there probably aren't supposed to be. They rationalize that they are no longer needed because they served their purpose. That is not what the scriptures say, though. And that's not how it worked at first. If the keys of apostleship had been passed on, we would not be a divided Church today. To me, that's so obvious. I can't really understand why people can't see it. You don't let the foundation crumble and expect something that's built on it to remain standing.
Even when the apostles were still alive things were not going the way of having an organisation based on truth
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I do not see that adding more revelation would be helpful, the "bible" is already filled with seemingly contradictory things that need to be spiritually discerned if you add more to it, it would be more confusing for everybody and also if God meant for a physical organisation with apostles, prophets and teachers to continue having new revelations and the teachers to keep everyone in the truth that is what would have happened, and the apostles would not have said that even then that it was going to decay

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:00 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 457,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Kat i believe when Jesus said "upon this rock i will build this my church", he was referring to the revelation that Peter had of who Jesus was .

God builds by revelation.
True

and I believe that it is not new revelations -- it is revealing what has already been written to individuals
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:13 PM
 
7,871 posts, read 6,682,198 times
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The Prophet in the Church is very needed for Jesus can have his relationship with his believers and build faith for his purpose, For in Matthew 10:40-41 ..``He that receiveth you receiveth me and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me..... He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophets reward and he that receiveth a rightous man in the name of a rightous man shell receive a rightous mans reward``...See if people reject a prophet then what Jesus is trying to relay to his believers will not be received and Jesus grace will not be given from Heaven...... A lot of Churches reject the Prophets and the Apostles because they chose to be in their control believing they are protecting the church from loss. whereeas these churchs are robing God of his blessing for victory to his people, and Jesus just takes his purpose and power to thoughs who are listening and obeying him.....
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,922,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Even when the apostles were still alive things were not going the way of having an organisation based on truth
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Interestingly, though, they warned of "false prophets." They did just not warn of "prophets" in general, which they likely would have done if they knew God intended to send no new prophets.

Quote:
I do not see that adding more revelation would be helpful, the "bible" is already filled with seemingly contradictory things that need to be spiritually discerned if you add more to it...
I bet that back when the apostles were alive, nobody saw the scriptures as being "contradictory." That's because the apostles were given the keys of authority to guide the Lord's followers and to help them understand the scriptures. That's why Paul warned how it would be without them. You see "more revelation" as being confusing. I see it as guidance, directives to help in understanding the apparent contradictions we see today. Just think... Maybe, if there were apostles leading the Church, everyone would understand what universalists really believe and would see that, correctly understood, their beliefs are not false but true. There would be a lot fewer things to argue about than we seem to have today, because the apostles would speak with authority and we would know we could trust them to speak only God's word.

Quote:
...it would be more confusing for everybody and also if God meant for a physical organisation with apostles, prophets and teachers to continue having new revelations and the teachers to keep everyone in the truth that is what would have happened, and the apostles would not have said that even then that it was going to decay.
I think God gives mankind the responsibility to do what's right, and that mankind messes up a lot. I believe that an apostasy was inevitable, but that doesn't mean that it's what God wanted to have happen.

Quote:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Excellent examples!
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,922,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
True

and I believe that it is not new revelations -- it is revealing what has already been written to individuals
And how does that seem to be working?
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:16 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,275 posts, read 20,017,000 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
True

and I believe that it is not new revelations -- it is revealing what has already been written to individuals
That and who He really is , because since death passed unto all men we have had a marred picture of who He really is(By nature and character), but now with a clear conscience through revelation faith we begin to understand His heart towards us personally, and towards all of His creation.
This is what we freely received and are called to freely give.Neither do i condemn you, i have left the rest of this verse out intentionally.

Last edited by pcamps; 06-05-2010 at 04:32 PM.. Reason: Absolutely terrible grammar , the truth sets you free.
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
That and who He really is , because since death passed unto all men we have had a marred picture of who He really is(By nature and character), but know with a clear conscience through revelation faith we begin to understand is heart towards us personally and towards all of His creation.
This is what we freely received and are called to freely give.Neither do i condemn you, i have left the rest of this verse out intentionally.
"I heal their backsliding, I love them freely, For turned back hath Mine anger from him" (Hosea 14:4)

God is good.

"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.( Hosea 6:1)

His Mercies endure forever!
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:29 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 457,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
And how does that seem to be working?
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:06 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
What, specifically, gives "someone closely associated with an Apostle" the divine mandate to write scripture? Again, you're just saying what you believe to be the case, but you haven't provided any evidence to support what you're saying.



The Bible doesn't say that Luke was the writer of the Gospel of Luke, but it is generally accepted that he was the writer. And it is accepted that the same writer who wrote the Gospel of Luke also wrote the book of Acts.

Luke was not an Apostle, but was associated with Paul who was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. God chose Luke, to write the Gospel of Luke to a Gentile audience, and emphasize in that Gospel, the humanity of Christ, whereas each of the other Gospels emphasized other aspects of Christ. Matthew presented Jesus as King, Mark presented Jesus as the suffering servant, and John presented Jesus Christ as the Son of God; that is, His deity.

Since the Bible is the word of God, and Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and Acts, he had divine authority to do so. The Bible doesn't have say that God gave Luke authority to write those books. The fact that they are a part of the word of God is proof that He did. Now, those who deny that the Bible is the word of God will believe whatever it is they want to believe.




These 2 resources tell a little something about the man Luke.

Profiles of Faith: Luke Paul's Beloved Friend and Companion > The Good News : January/February 2001

Luke - Definition of Luke at Define.com Dictionary and Thesaurus (define Luke)


Additionally, Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark, was not an Apostle, but was closely associated with Peter.

Introduction to Gospel of Mark: Servant of God






Quote:
That was clearly one of their functions. Another was to make sure the doctrine that was taught remained pure and untainted by the opinions of men. The Apostles were a unitied body of twelve men in whose hands Christ left the Church. When they died, the Church was no longer under the direction of His authorized servants, who had the power to call and ordain others. That was one of the primary reasons the Church fell into apostasy.
The doctrines of the church were under attack even while the Apostles were alive. False teachers would come in behind Paul and try to undo what Paul had taught. This is evident in the book of Galatians. And Peter speaks of this in 2 Peter 3:16,17.

Quote:
And if the Apostles hadn't been killed, they would have continued to receive revelation from Christ and would have continued to record that revelation for us to have today. But your comment does bring up another interesting point. By the time John was in exile on Patmos, Linus was head of "the Church." If Linus really had been Peter's successor, why wouldn't the Lord have revealed His Revelation through him instead of through John? It was through John that the Lord chose to speak. Why? Because he was the last living Apostle. He was the last to hold the keys and authority of Apostleship. God was speaking to Christians as long as there was someone authorized to receive His revealed word. Once there were no more Apostles, He stopped speaking.

God is always in control. No one dies apart from the Lord's permission. Each of the Apostles died when and how the Lord determined they would. Neither Satan or man thwarted God's plan with regard to revealing His word. With the completion of the book of Revelation, the Canon of Scripture was and is complete. The Bible is God's complete and connected message to man. For the duration of the Church-age, the Bible with the Holy Spirit as the true mentor, is the means by which God communicates to believers. There is no other divine revelation from God during this dispensation. There is no revelation from Christ via automatic writing as per the divine love movements James Pagget's claims, and the Book of Mormon is not another testament of Jesus. The Bible is it. It is the final authority with regard to God's divine revelation of Himself.
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:10 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The age of Apostles ended when the last Apostle died with John. At that point all that was needed to reveal God's plan\will for salvation revealed and need for direct communication for humans ended. (when compared to how God revealed his message prior to this...OT prophets and scripture, NT Apostles\Christ and scriptures). The NT age will only have available to it is the word as recorded in the Bible.

Meaning what we have in the bible (completion of the written Canon of Scripture about 96 A.D.) will be the only source in which God speaks to us directly. The Bible that we have today didn't come into existance by fate\chance or mis-management of other lost writings. To say such is contrary to God's promise of his word will never pass away

The current scriptures, God's Word (the Bible) confirms that believing in the promise revealed in scripture alone that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:30-31

.

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