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Old 06-07-2010, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Yes, I know about that. The point of above quote is that there are CONTRADICTIONS in this book of yours. One part says that you should do that (help poor etc) other that you should do this (accept Jesus).

And you know what? Matthew makes more sense of the two.
Scripture does not contradict scripture. The Bible repeats to no end that salvation is based on faith, and not by works. The sheep and goats story talks about salvation, not the actual works. Note how the rightous (the sheep) didn't even realize they had done the right things, until Christ explains it: their hearts were pure. He talks not about their actual works but about their hearts, which were made righteous when they were saved. When Christ sees a pure heart he also sees the fruits (the results)of that heart (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness etc). The goats, destined for hell, never had their hearts re-made, so they never stood a chance, even if they had physically fed the poor.

 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:50 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Let me help you that one:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Yea i do not see the words "no hope" in that verse ... But you are welcome to add them to the scripture if you like, just don't expect me to agree with you.

This is called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" ...

Here is a link that might help understand what this logical fallacy is ...

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Oh and by the way, one day everyone will believe in and confess Christ as lord to the glory of the father ...



God bless ...
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:58 PM
 
159 posts, read 146,450 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Scripture does not contradict scripture. The Bible repeats to no end that salvation is based on faith, and not by works. The sheep and goats story talks about salvation, not the actual works. Note how the rightous (the sheep) didn't even realize they had done the right things, until Christ explains it: their hearts were pure. He talks not about their actual works but about their hearts, which were made righteous when they were saved. When Christ sees a pure heart he also sees the fruits (the results)of that heart (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness etc). The goats, destined for hell, never had their hearts re-made, so they never stood a chance, even if they had physically fed the poor.
Jesus does very much talk about actual works in those verses. You can't twist it. And the verses say NOTHING about those who "physically fed the poor" but didn't accept Jesus going to hell, and you know it.

What if it's the other way around? By doing works you purify your heart and only that way you can really and fully accept Jesus?

Because if it's the way you say, we would expect those who accepted Jesus to be much better people than the rest. If simply accepting Jesus was that transforming that you can escape hell itself, we would expect obvious changes. When you look at things like, say, divorce rates Christians don't look that much better than the rest.

Not to mention that your version makes God do things to Jews forever that certain other guy did, something you refuse to see.

Last edited by python87; 06-07-2010 at 08:07 PM..
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,567,063 times
Reputation: 1579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Go ahead and call Christians belief cold if that makes you feel better. It is what it is, and switching beliefs won't make it go away.
Yes, it is what it is. Obviously there is nothing gracious about the ET version of the gospel. That's why I reject it. I don't reject God or Christ - I reject the doctrine of demons that says God's only choice is to torture people forever after they die if they did not say the magic J-E-S-U-S prayer in a timely manner (before their last breath). The notion that THAT IS THE GOSPEL is absolutely preposterous.

Heartsong

 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:15 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,579,401 times
Reputation: 4148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Yes, it is what it is. Obviously there is nothing gracious about the ET version of the gospel. That's why I reject it. I don't reject God or Christ - I reject the doctrine of demons that says God's only choice is to torture people forever after they die if they did not say the magic J-E-S-U-S prayer in a timely manner (before their last breath). The notion that THAT IS THE GOSPEL is absolutely preposterous.

Heartsong

Indeed.
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,567,063 times
Reputation: 1579
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Finn_Jarber, do you believe Jews who died in a holocaust are in hell, and if yes, why was Hitler wrong in torturing them in Auschwitz? He just decided to start torturing them a little earlier than your God. Only a tiny fraction of them would convert to Christianity before death anyway.
A perfectly appropriate question for those who teach the doctrine of ET.
I guess I'm supposed to believe God is like Hitler -- shoving people into ovens? And that is a pure and undefiled and holy thought? Sheesh!

Heartsong
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,270 posts, read 86,025,648 times
Reputation: 39664
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
a friend of mine, fighting cancer for the last couple of years, died today. He was 47.
As a tribute to him, I thought I'd start a thread about the Christian's hope.
(I'm quite sure he never "accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.")

Any thoughts?
Should I tell his parents he went to heaven or hell?

Blessings to all,
brian

I am sorry for your loss and hope you have many good memories of him to sustain you.

Please, unless his parents are believers themselves, refrain from telling them he went to heaven, and ESPECIALLY don't tell them he went to hell (would you REALLY do that??)

Just tell them you are happy to know he is no longer suffering (this is much more compassionate).
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 631,917 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I sure hope he accepted Christ and went to heaven. It is strange you are thinking about telling his parents he went to hell since you don't even believe there is such place. Why would you do that?

PS You don't know if he accepted Christ in his last moments, so you don't really know where he went. I would not tell the parents anything except that it is not for you to say because you don't know.
I have to agree with you Finn, we do not know for sure of anyone before death in these types of situations.

Myself, I would just tell the parents about Jesus and His Amazing grace for them and how loving our heavenly Father is and he will comfort them in their time of need.

God Bless,
Mercy
 
Old 06-08-2010, 12:33 AM
 
223 posts, read 247,745 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Yes, it is what it is. Obviously there is nothing gracious about the ET version of the gospel. That's why I reject it. I don't reject God or Christ - I reject the doctrine of demons that says God's only choice is to torture people forever after they die if they did not say the magic J-E-S-U-S prayer in a timely manner (before their last breath). The notion that THAT IS THE GOSPEL is absolutely preposterous.

Heartsong
Well put Mr/Miss Hearty!!
 
Old 06-08-2010, 12:35 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,392,137 times
Reputation: 47449
sorry you lost a friend i have lost many.
death is no respecter of persons, whether he believes in your god or not, the same thing will happen to him. death experience is the same regardless of beliefs.
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