U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-09-2010, 09:30 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,550,724 times
Reputation: 4461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
(Satan) will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."
I would like to ask her what guilt is charged to the carnal mind and nature of man? Scripture tells us the spirit of antichrist is human in number (nature)...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-09-2010, 02:21 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
by Ellen G White.

"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.
Ellen White is a false prophet.

Azazel is not Satan, nor a dark angel of satan's dominion.
Azazel is a Watcher, one of the arch/chief angels, called "Watchers" of whom Michael is "chief of those chief/arch" angels. Azazel became subject to satan in leading men astray and is now chained in Sheol below, and in the seventieth generation from his chaining [at the time of Noah's flood, as I pasted from Enoch before on this thread], all the sins and iniquities were given to him, in Sheol below, by Jesus Christ [as Enoch wrote of], who descended into Sheol with the sins and iniquities of the people who would believe and call on Him for salvation, transferred to Him, as Isaiah 53 states.
He hung on the cross and "became sin for us", and therefore tasted death for us when the Father turned from Him.

But He took those sins away -"To Azazel", chained below, in Sheol, with "an opening in the wilderness covered with rocks", as the goat elected "to Azazel was sent away to, and as the Book of Enoch wrote of. Learn about the goat elected "to Azazel", from the Atonement, and in learning, you will learn about the transfer of our sins to Jesus on the cross, and the taking away of those sins "To Azazel", in the wilderness", and the giving of those sins to Azazel, and his hosts who are themselves "food for satan" and his dark angels in the Lake of Fire, where they will be tormented forever.

Satan is not a holy angel nor was he ever a holy angel, but was created as a spirit in heaven to tempt, try, and test angels and men. Those who do not become subject to satan and his dark angels do not get blotted out of the book of life. Those who do believe the lies of the dark prince by his temptations, have a part in the Lake of fire, which was prepared for the devil and his [dark/unholy] angels, from the beginning. The Lake of Fire is the devil's dominion, and all who become subject to him have a part in that fire and are tormented -which is food to the evil princes- forever and forever.

Quote:
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-09-2010, 03:04 PM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
Reputation: 19
Yesh.

Thank you for your contribution.

Now, just be ready for an attack by the SDA EGW faithfulls. You have accused their loving PROPHET of being a servant of Satan. You better put on the FULL armour of EPH 6 and prepare for a spiritual war. You dont need to worry because you have TRUTH and the TRUE JESUS on your side!! Your battle is won already before the enemies arrive!!

The Enemies of truth know they have been defeated and exposed and they wont make any appearance here IMO.

John D Bull
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
by Ellen G White. Prophet of the SDA movement.

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

"In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.

Hi John, I ran into this belief about 5-6 years ago, what those who believe this fail to realise is that they are saying Satan is the one who makes atonement for us.

Anyway here is a response I gave concerning this topic


Scapegoat


Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORDíS lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.

Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.

So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.

. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORDíS lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.

Nu.29:11 speaks of this.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.



Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.

Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Put to death in the flesh ( first goat) , quickened by the Spirit ( scapegoat)

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the scapegoat was for our ATONEMENT. This show us that Jesus Christ is the scapegoat.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

This clearly show that the scapegoat is Jesus Christ, as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head , even our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.

You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other then Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.

ONE goat for a sin offering , ONE goat (scapegoat) for ATONEMENT. Perfect examples of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 10:57 AM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
Reputation: 19
Pneuma.

Thanx for your comments. I agree with you totally that both GOATS represent JESUS. The sacrificed Jesus on the CROSS and the RISEN LORD. Plus it clearly says BOTH goats were presented to the LORD!! How can the second be Satan and presented to the LORD he would have been struck dead in an instant! As soon as the sins were tranfered on the scapegoat it would have droppe'd dead and NOT live to be led away alive.!!

Heres my points i put to my ex-SDA brethren and they did NOT give the FINAL answers.

1. IF EGW is correct and the second goat represents Satan, whos sins will JESUS place on SATAN's head at the second coming of Christ?

REPLY: EGW said the redeemed.

2. I replied how long will SATAN carry those sins for?

REPLY: EGW said 1,000yrs.

3. I said how can that be? Firstly JESUS said the sins are blotted out and he remembers them NO more. And JESUS only managed to take on the SIN of the WORLD for less than a DAY and the weight of those sins killed him. Satan is being portrayed as more powerfull than JESUS for carrying those redeemed sins for 1,000 yrs.

4. Then i asked, are JESUS holy hands placed on SATAN? No reply!

I said, EGW said it has to be done the same way as LEV 16: 10. This got them thinking.

5. So, when your jesus holy hands are placed on SATAN head, is that when the ATONEMENT is complete? They said EGW said YES.

6. Then i asked them are your SINS blotted out? They replied NO! EGW said they are blotted out only when jesus places those sins on SATAN and NOT before. After that jesus will forget them as they are taken away with SATAN in lake of fire.


7. I asked who is your FINAL SIN BEARER? NO REPLY


EGW is a fake and died a millionaire in 1905. Now her estate is worth more $$$$millions. The LOVE of money is the root of ALL EVIL. SHE is taking people to hell every year!!

John D Bull

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 05:07 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,945,214 times
Reputation: 116
Here's a Jewish interpretation for 'Azazel'.
JewishEncyclopedia.com - AZAZEL

God Bless
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 05:23 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA View Post
Here's a Jewish interpretation for 'Azazel'.
JewishEncyclopedia.com - AZAZEL

God Bless
Since they missed the doctrine of the Day of Atonement altogether, and since God has blinded their eyes, and removed them as the vineyard keepers, then why would they understand what the goat elected by lot "to Azazel" means, which ISaiah 53 explains, along with the Book of Enoch, which the sons of Zadok called Scripture, as Jesus also did?

Quote:
10 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: 2"Go to Noah and tell him in my name 'Hide thyself!' and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. 3And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world."
4And again the Lord said to Raphael: "Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. 5 And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. 6 And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. 7And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. 8And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin."


9And to Gabriel said the Lord: "Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy the children of fornication and the children of the Watchers from amongst men: and cause them to go forth: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. 10And no request that they i.e. their fathers make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."
11And the Lord said unto Michael: "Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. 12And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. 13In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. 14And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. 15And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. 16Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.
17"And then shall all the righteous escape,
The goat elected by lot "To Azazel" is a type of Christ. Isaiah 53 shows the fulfillment of the Atonement in the 70th generation from Noah [The conversation in Enoch is from a fragment of Noah in 1 Enoch].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 05:37 PM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
Reputation: 19
YESHUA .

I agree with your comments.


When the jews accept the contents of link [below], then they will understand the SCAPEGOAT representing CHRIST ATONEMENT.

They need to read [P22]and understand and believe it!! But never tell them where your reading from until after you have read it. They will be AMAZED ITS NOT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!

link> Psalm 22 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 07:37 PM
JLA
 
627 posts, read 1,945,214 times
Reputation: 116
Here's are few more references.

http://www.occultopedia.com/a/Azazel.htm (broken link)
Azazel
Azazel
Azazel and Atonement (No. 214)
Azazel - Here a little, there a little - Spirit Realm
The Azazel Goat :: Sermons :: Library :: Bible Tools
Azazel - Demons, Demonology, and Evil in Judaism and Christianity

However E. G. White came to the conclusion that the "scape goat is Satan" one thing is for sure other Christians and Satanist themselves believe that the scape goat (azazel) is indeed Satan himself.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 10:42 PM
 
425 posts, read 273,108 times
Reputation: 63
Interesting interplay here concerning the passover and Yom Kippur. Ex 12 5 vs Lev16 5 In Exodus the Passover Lamb could be either a goat or a sheep. Any animal that has its blood poured in the sanctuary is sanctified.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top