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Old 06-08-2010, 06:29 AM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
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Leviticus 16:10 (King James Version)


10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an ATONEMENT WITH HIM, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.



Just 10 QUESTIONS: Please make sure you do a minimum of 20 MINS study & prayer on this verse before attempting answering the questions!

1. Are the 2 goats without blemish?

2. When the FIRST GOAT was killed did this make the SECOND blemished?

3. Does the second GOAT remain UNBLEMISHED even after the first GOAT is killed?

4. Who does the FIRST GOAT represent?

5. Who does the HIGH PRIEST represent?

6. Who does the SCAPEGOAT represent?

7. Could the second goat have been chosen as the FIRST GOAT?

8. Could the SECOND GOAT qualify to fullfill the ROLL of the FIRST GOAT if it was chosen and vice versa?

9. ARE BOTH GOATS EQUAL?

10. Could the ATONEMENT be completed by using ONE GOAT?


Blessings

John Dan [Bull]
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:35 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,550,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
1. Are the 2 goats without blemish?
No, there's no mention they were pure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
2. When the FIRST GOAT was killed did this make the SECOND blemished?


The second goat was predestined to be a scapegoat by the Lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
3. Does the second GOAT remain UNBLEMISHED even after the first GOAT is killed?


No - Aaron confessed all the transgressions of the people over the second goat, and it bore all the iniquites of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
4. Who does the FIRST GOAT represent?
Jesus firstly, then His bride in this age


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
5. Who does the HIGH PRIEST represent?
God the Father, I believe - for it was His administration to accomplish this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
6. Who does the SCAPEGOAT represent?
Again, the Christ - for there is one sin offering.
Heb 10 says "by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
7. Could the second goat have been chosen as the FIRST GOAT?
Because I believe Jesus filled both these roles - and Aaron was to cast lots to determine one from the other - yes, they could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
8. Could the SECOND GOAT qualify to fullfill the ROLL of the FIRST GOAT if it was chosen and vice versa?
Again, yes - if the administration was accomplished over both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
9. ARE BOTH GOATS EQUAL?

Both symbols are equally important - the goat that lived had to carry the iniquity for all its life, and the first simply gave its life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
10. Could the ATONEMENT be completed by using ONE GOAT?
Only if the goat could be resurrected - but that was later to come.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
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Hi Johnc10,
I mentioned the same topic a while back, but it doesn't get much attention.
I asked about it because I read this:

"Jesus was a major part of the true atonement process. It seems that men believe things if they can see it. The act of atonement was done annually by the Jewish priests in a dramatic ritual where two goats were used. One was killed in sacrifice and its blood used to atone while the other goat was spared and all the sins of all the people were confessed over his head and placed upon him. This goat was released into the wilderness as a "scapegoat." The true atonement involved Lucifer and Jesus as the two goats. The Father "killed" Jesus on the cross and used his blood to atone while upon Lucifer's head, He confessed the sins of all the people and placed them there. He let Lucifer escape death and wander around in the bottomless pit which is this earth environment. This is the "mechanism" used wherein Jesus took away the sins of the world. This is something dramatic and tangible that men can relate to. As for John he spoke by way of the Spirit and did not realize the impact of the words the Father uttered through him. He cried, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world." He was cleansing men or baptizing men (according to purification laws of Moses) with natural water unto repentance and he kept doing it after he uttered those famous words until Herod imprisoned him. The baptism of the Holy Ghost can break the power of the devil to control the behavior of men, but it does not remove the devils (sins) from holding on to us to avoid falling back into the pit. John really did not understand what God meant. Had he understood he would have realized that his baptism was "academic" and without any real power. It was symbolic. However John obeyed the command of God in his work. Who has understood the mind of God? He has multiple meanings to His words and multi-purposes in His Plan. He cannot be fathomed and all we can understand is what He allows us to know at any given time."

from this site: Body

VERY interesting, IMO..

Do you have any thoughts on it?

Blessings,
brian

Last edited by ahigherway; 06-08-2010 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:42 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNC10 View Post
Leviticus 16:10 (King James Version)


10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an ATONEMENT WITH HIM, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.



Just 10 QUESTIONS: Please make sure you do a minimum of 20 MINS study & prayer on this verse before attempting answering the questions!

1. Are the 2 goats without blemish?

2. When the FIRST GOAT was killed did this make the SECOND blemished?

3. Does the second GOAT remain UNBLEMISHED even after the first GOAT is killed?

4. Who does the FIRST GOAT represent?

5. Who does the HIGH PRIEST represent?

6. Who does the SCAPEGOAT represent?

7. Could the second goat have been chosen as the FIRST GOAT?

8. Could the SECOND GOAT qualify to fullfill the ROLL of the FIRST GOAT if it was chosen and vice versa?

9. ARE BOTH GOATS EQUAL?

10. Could the ATONEMENT be completed by using ONE GOAT?


Blessings

John Dan [Bull]
they were types of Christ, for rehearsing His final, once for all Atonement.
One goat elected by lot was "To Azazel", and the other "To YHWH".
The Goat "To Azazel" represented the soul of the New Man, Jesus the Christ, who is YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in New Creation human being flesh.
When He had all the sins and iniquities laid on Him [transferred to Him], as Isaiah 53 states, He departed, "To Azazel" to dump those sins and iniquities on him who was chained "in the wilderness".
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:55 AM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Johnc10,
I mentioned the same topic a while back, but it doesn't get much attention.
I asked about it because I read this:

"Jesus was a major part of the true atonement process. It seems that men believe things if they can see it. The act of atonement was done annually by the Jewish priests in a dramatic ritual where two goats were used. One was killed in sacrifice and its blood used to atone while the other goat was spared and all the sins of all the people were confessed over his head and placed upon him. This goat was released into the wilderness as a "scapegoat." The true atonement involved Lucifer and Jesus as the two goats. The Father "killed" Jesus on the cross and used his blood to atone while upon Lucifer's head, He confessed the sins of all the people and placed them there. He let Lucifer escape death and wander around in the bottomless pit which is this earth environment. This is the "mechanism" used wherein Jesus took away the sins of the world. This is something dramatic and tangible that men can relate to. As for John he spoke by way of the Spirit and did not realize the impact of the words the Father uttered through him. He cried, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world." He was cleansing men or baptizing men (according to purification laws of Moses) with natural water unto repentance and he kept doing it after he uttered those famous words until Herod imprisoned him. The baptism of the Holy Ghost can break the power of the devil to control the behavior of men, but it does not remove the devils (sins) from holding on to us to avoid falling back into the pit. John really did not understand what God meant. Had he understood he would have realized that his baptism was "academic" and without any real power. It was symbolic. However John obeyed the command of God in his work. Who has understood the mind of God? He has multiple meanings to His words and multi-purposes in His Plan. He cannot be fathomed and all we can understand is what He allows us to know at any given time."

from this site: Body

VERY interesting, IMO..

Do you have any thoughts on it?

Blessings,
brian
Hi Brian.

Thanx for your reply and link. I will give my views at later date.
I can tell you i was in a well known church for 21yrs and left 9 yrs ago because of the SCAPEGOAT TEACHINGS.

Can i ask you a few questions if i may.

1. Are you or were you an SDA?

2. Do you think the SECOND GOAT represents SATAN?

3. Do you believe the ATONEMENT was completed at the cross? or is it still in the future?

4. Do you believe people are taught a different jesus in some denomination?


These questions are to all viewers also.

SDA's are most welcome too!
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Old 06-08-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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THE CLEANSING OF THE TABERNACLE

With the announcement of the inauguration of a new covenant comes a dissertation on the necessity and value of the blood of the covenant victim, without which the covenant is not ratified and therefore not available. This leads into a remarkable succession of statements in Hebrews 9:18-22, in which it is shown that not only the people (as well as the scroll of the covenant) but also the tabernacle itself and all the vessels of the ministry were sprinkled with blood.
Indeed, it is stated that "almost all is being cleansed in blood." This is surely significant.

In Leviticus 16, verses 15-20, we read of the need for the chief priest (Aaron) to sprinkle the blood of the goat of the sin-offering upon and before the propitiatory, to make a propitiation for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel. And this sprinkling of the blood goes on until he has made an end of propitiating the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar.

Immediately following this propitiation of the holy place, the live goat (scapegoat) is taken by Aaron, and after "the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins" have been put on the head of the goat, it is sent away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness. This represents Jesus as the One not knowing sin, Whom God makes to be sin. Just as the scapegoat was sent out into the wilderness, and took away the sins of the people from out of God's sight, so Jesus was sent into the wilderness of God's disfavor, taking with Him the sins of the universe. The darkness, which enshrouded the cross, represents God's turning away of His face from the scene. Note that God did not turn away His face from the cross as such, or from the shame of His Son hanging upon a tree; for, if He had, it would have been dark for the whole of the six hours instead of the last three hours. No, God turned away from His Son when He was the personification of sin itself, and the returning light would be an assurance to Jesus that God regarded the question of sin as having been dealt with to a finality. (John Essex, Unsearchable Riches, vol.68, p.258).
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Old 06-08-2010, 12:14 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,304,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
they were types of Christ, for rehearsing His final, once for all Atonement.
One goat elected by lot was "To Azazel", and the other "To YHWH".
The Goat "To Azazel" represented the soul of the New Man, Jesus the Christ, who is YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in New Creation human being flesh.
When He had all the sins and iniquities laid on Him [transferred to Him], as Isaiah 53 states, He departed, "To Azazel" to dump those sins and iniquities on him who was chained "in the wilderness".
Azazel is bound in Sheol, with an opening "in the wilderness":
Quote:
Enoch 10
4And again the Lord said to Raphael: "Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness [Sheol]: and make an opening in the desert [wilderness], which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. 5And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. 6And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. 7And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. 8And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe[give -transfer] all sin."
Enoch 54
Quote:
54 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning fire. 2And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: "For whom are these chains being prepared?"
5And he said unto me: "These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.

The Atonement goat, elected by lot "to Azazel" was for sin offering, perfect and unblemished must anything be that is brought before the LORD -YHWH.
Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot to YHWH, and the other lot "to Azazel".
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell "to Azazel", shall be presented alive before YHWH, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go "to Azazel" into the wilderness/the desert.

Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that [is] for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that [is] before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about. Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lev 16:26 And he that let go the goat "to Azazel" shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Jesus blood is the sin offering of the "goat to YHWH", shed upon His own Mercy Seat flesh body of the second/New Man creation, and shed on the ground before the altar of sacrifice [the Cross], for the redemption of the earth.

The soul of Jesus Christ is represented by that goat "to Azazel, on whom hands were laid and all the sins and iniquities of the people of the Name were transferred by the laying on of hands onto that goat and the confession of those deeds.

Jesus bore that transfer of sins and iniquities while bound to the altar of sacrifice -Psalm 118 tells us about that, and Isaiah 53 tells us about that.

Enoch tells us why the goat is sent way to the wilderness, to Azazel, with those transferred sins, as a type and shadow of the Person and work of Christ, upon whom all our sins and iniquities were laid, and He took them all away, gave to Azazel and his hosts, chained in Sheol, under the rocks "in the wilderness/desert", and rose from the dead, sin free, leavin ghtose sins there, and the consequences of them on Azazel and his hosts, who will suffer forever with them, upon them, in the Lake of Fire, as Enoch explains.
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Old 06-08-2010, 12:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lev 16:26 And he that let go the goat "to Azazel" shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Jesus blood is the sin offering of the "goat to YHWH", shed upon His own Mercy Seat flesh body of the second/New Man creation, and shed on the ground before the altar of sacrifice [the Cross], for the redemption of the earth.

The soul of Jesus Christ is represented by that goat "to Azazel, on whom hands were laid and all the sins and iniquities of the people of the Name were transferred by the laying on of hands onto that goat and the confession of those deeds.

Jesus bore that transfer of sins and iniquities while bound to the altar of sacrifice -Psalm 118 tells us about that, and Isaiah 53 tells us about that.

Enoch tells us why the goat is sent way to the wilderness, to Azazel, with those transferred sins, as a type and shadow of the Person and work of Christ, upon whom all our sins and iniquities were laid, and He took them all away, gave to Azazel and his hosts, chained in Sheol, under the rocks "in the wilderness/desert", and rose from the dead, sin free, leavin ghtose sins there, and the consequences of them on Azazel and his hosts, who will suffer forever with them, upon them, in the Lake of Fire, as Enoch explains.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
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Old 06-08-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jesus had laid upon Him the sins and iniquities of whosoever will call on His name for salvation. He died of a broken heart with the weight of those sins and iniquities upon His soul, and took them away, to Azazel" to whom He gave them for Azazel and his hosts to suffer for, in the Lake of Fire, forever, as Enoch said.

Psa 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked [for some] to take pity, but [there was] none; and for comforters, but I found none. Psa 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
He was our God, serving as the truth of the "goat for the sin offering", to fulfill "the Acceptable Atonement", once for all, bound to the "horns of the altar of sacrifice" for our sin offering.

Psa 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, [and] I will praise YHWH: Psa 118:20 This gate of YHWH, into which the righteous shall enter. Psa 118:21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation/Yeshua. Psa 118:22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. Psa 118:23 This is YHWHS doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] YHWH hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Psa 118:25 Save now, I beseech thee,YHWH: , YHWHI beseech thee, send now prosperity. Psa 118:26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of YHWH: we have blessed you out of the house of YHWH. Psa 118:27 God/EL [is] YHWH, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar. Psa 118:28 Thou [art] my God/EL, and I will praise thee: [thou art] my God/ELOHYM, I will exalt thee. sa 118:29 O give thanks unto YHWH; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:58 AM
 
223 posts, read 247,766 times
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by Ellen G White. Prophet of the SDA movement.

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

"In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.
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