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Old 06-08-2010, 08:28 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,120,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
These are not trick questions ... but if you do not want to discuss I respect that.

These are questions I have asked and prayed to God for answers

How does his plan of salvation affect those gentiles that were born prior to Christ's physical life, death and resurrection - they had no chance of salvation if it is by accepting HIS son (they could not receive the gift as they did not know that the gift was being offered).
They were saved by Grace through faith in God. RE: Abraham. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
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Old 06-08-2010, 08:29 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,099,603 times
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You know, I don't think it's quite as simple as you're trying to make it. I'll tell you why. I don't believe that it is possible for any person who has ever lived (except for Christ himself, of course) to be saved by virtue of his or her own good works. We are simply incapable of doing so. All of us have sinned and are unworthy to return to God's presence and be reconciled to Him. There is a penalty for sin, and it must be paid. Jesus Christ paid the price we incurred by our disobedience and took upon himself our guilt. The debt having been paid, we are made clean again and can be reunited with God. So in this respect, it is Christ's grace and that alone that made it possible for us to be forgiven.

On the other hand, we have quite a number of scriptures that tell us that we also have a responsibility to do the best we can to live in such a way that Jesus Christ will recognize us as His followers. We can say we believe in Him, but if we fail to make a change in our lives, we are certainly not showing Him that we do. These four passages seem to stress the need for us to be willing to walk the walk and not merely talk the talk.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Grace is a gift, but it's a gift that appears to be given to those who have established a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ. The fact that it is given freely, and out of an unimaginable love for us does not mean that it is given to everyone who says, "I believe, therefore, I am free to live my life in any way I want to. Christ has paid the price for my sins, and will continue to do so, whether I choose to follow Him or not."
You left out one key thing. None of those verses ever say that a person has lost his or her salvation OR CAN LOSE IT AFTER THE PERSON FREELY ACCEPTS SALVATION AS A FREE GIFT. I would agree with you that following Jesus is more than saying that you are a Christian. Anyone can claim Christ as Savior, but those who are truly saved will bear visible fruit. So here is my question to you, “What is meant by fruit?” The clearest example of Christian fruit can be found in Galatians 5:22-23 where Paul describes the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There are other types of Christian fruit (such as praise, winning souls for Christ), but this list provides us with a good summary of Christian attitudes. True believers will manifest these attitudes in their lives to an increasing degree as they progress in their Christian walk (2 Peter 1:5-8). This has nothing to do with someone losing his or her salvation as some would think, since it's clear from these verses that God cares about the fruit we bear as a result of our salvation, and I am hoping you are getting my point here.

It is these true, fruit-bearing true Christians who have the guarantee of eternal security/salvation, and they will persevere to the end. There are many Scriptures that bear this out. Romans 8:29-30 outlines the “golden chain” of salvation by pointing out that those who were foreknown by God were predestined, called, justified, and glorified. There is no loss along the way. Philippians 1:6 tells us that the work God began in us, He will also finish. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that God has sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until we possess it. John 10:29 affirms that no one is able to take God’s sheep out of His hand. There are many other Scriptures that say the same thing—true believers are eternally secure in their salvation.
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Old 06-08-2010, 08:42 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 454,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
They were saved by Grace through faith in God. RE: Abraham. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
But the gentiles did not believe in God apparently and were cut off without hope
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:55 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,120,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
But the gentiles did not believe in God apparently and were cut off without hope
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
It is still about faith, here is a good paper on it.
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003i/bryant.pdf
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
You left out one key thing. None of those verses ever say that a person has lost his or her salvation OR CAN LOSE IT AFTER THE PERSON FREELY ACCEPTS SALVATION AS A FREE GIFT.
I didn't comment on losing one's salvation because nobody told me that's what we were talking about. Anyway, I don't believe we are "saved" the moment we accept Christ. I believe that "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." I believe we have a promise of salvation when we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, but that if we fail to keep the terms of the covenant, we have broken it and no longer have that promise.

Quote:
I would agree with you that following Jesus is more than saying that you are a Christian. Anyone can claim Christ as Savior, but those who are truly saved will bear visible fruit.
Since I seldom speak of "being saved" in the present tense, it's kind of hard for me to comment on this. I do believe that once we have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, have repented of our sins, have entered the waters of baptism and have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we become a new person, so to speak. We will want to be obedient to Him, and to pattern our lives after His. We will experience a change of heart, and that because of this change of heart, we will bear visible fruit, as you say. Still, you're implying that if a person is not "truly saved," he will not bear visible fruit. So, to some extent we appear to be agreeing that the bearing good fruit is important.

Quote:
So here is my question to you, “What is meant by fruit?” The clearest example of Christian fruit can be found in Galatians 5:22-23 where Paul describes the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There are other types of Christian fruit (such as praise, winning souls for Christ), but this list provides us with a good summary of Christian attitudes. True believers will manifest these attitudes in their lives to an increasing degree as they progress in their Christian walk (2 Peter 1:5-8). This has nothing to do with someone losing his or her salvation as some would think, since it's clear from these verses that God cares about the fruit we bear as a result of our salvation, and I am hoping you are getting my point here.
I don't know if I am or not. You seem to be saying that true believers will exhibit certain qualities and characteristics, and that if a person does not exhibit those qualities and characteristics, he really was never saved in the first place. It's not that he lost his salvation, but that he never was saved in the first place. In either case, it certainly does appear to me that our faith in Christ is only a true and living faith if it is accompanied by good works.

Quote:
It is these true, fruit-bearing true Christians who have the guarantee of eternal security/salvation, and they will persevere to the end. There are many Scriptures that bear this out. Romans 8:29-30 outlines the “golden chain” of salvation by pointing out that those who were foreknown by God were predestined, called, justified, and glorified. There is no loss along the way. Philippians 1:6 tells us that the work God began in us, He will also finish. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that God has sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until we possess it. John 10:29 affirms that no one is able to take God’s sheep out of His hand. There are many other Scriptures that say the same thing—true believers are eternally secure in their salvation.
Sure they are, but it's because they will bear good fruit. This is starting to sound like the question of which came first -- the chicken or the egg? Are we saved because we are obedient or are we obedient because we're saved? It truly does seem to be kind of a vicious circle. On one hand, you say that once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. But then you add that those who are saved behave in a certain way, and that if they don't, they're not really saved. It all works out very nicely if you word it just right.
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Or does it take more to be saved? The bible is clear we are simply SAVED by Grace. Ephesians 2:8 FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD. Nothing more...nothing less. We can't ever work for our salvation because it wasn't given to us to work for in the first place. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all given credit for our Salvation---WE CAN'T EVER TAKE CREDIT FOR SALVATION NOR WORK FOR IT. God gave it to us as a gift, Jesus died for us to accept it, and the Holy Spirit controls, empowers, and convicts us to remember why we need IT. AMEN AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY ON ME AND ALL OF US!
...THROUGH FAITH...BELIEVING FAITH>>>OBEDIENT FAITH<<<!!!

A converted sinner is a saved sinner...delivered from sin and wrath...through faith in Jesus Christ.

Grace inside a soul is a new life inside a soul...a regenerated sinner becomes a living soul...he lives a life of holiness...being born of God...he lives being delivered from the guilt of sin...by pardoning and justifying grace...

...conversion is the key to being saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ...

...no change...no saved...our conversion and perserverence in living in holiness will glorify God...any tendency toward faithless evil/wickedness/sin is not...I repeat NOT! rewarded with God's precious gift of grace...

...GOD FORBID!

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 06-08-2010 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:50 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 454,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...THROUGH FAITH...BELIEVING FAITH>>>OBEDIENT FAITH<<<!!!

A converted sinner is a saved sinner...delvered from sin and wrath...through faith in Jesus Christ.

Grace inside a soul is a new life inside a soul...a regenerated sinner becomes a living soul...he lives a life of holiness...being born of God...he lives being delivered from the guilt of sin...by pardoning and justifying grace...

...conversion is the key to being saved by grace through gaith in Jesus Christ...

...no change...no saved...our conversion and perserverence in living in holiness will glorify God...any tendency toward faithless evil/wickedness/sin is not...I repeat NOT! rewarded with God's precious gift of grace...

...GOD FORBID!

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
I agree Verna that it is about spiritual conversion and regeneration - faith to me is about faithfulness.......
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Or does it take more to be saved? The bible is clear we are simply SAVED by Grace. Ephesians 2:8 FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD. Nothing more...nothing less. We can't ever work for our salvation because it wasn't given to us to work for in the first place. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all given credit for our Salvation---WE CAN'T EVER TAKE CREDIT FOR SALVATION NOR WORK FOR IT. God gave it to us as a gift, Jesus died for us to accept it, and the Holy Spirit controls, empowers, and convicts us to remember why we need IT. AMEN AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY ON ME AND ALL OF US!
..."WE CAN'T EVER TAKE CREDIT FOR SALVATION NOR WORK FOR IT."...Philippians 2:12...WORK OUT YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling...

"Saved" and "Salvation" are two separate things altogether. You wait for your salvation...and it is only gained by your having been sanctified...SET APART FROM WORLDLYNESS!!!

Read:

Heb. 1:14...heirs of salvation...
2 Thes. 2:13...salvation through sanctification...

Study the Word of God and show thyself approved antredd......please...for your own sake.

In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I agree Verna that it is about spiritual conversion and regeneration - faith to me is about faithfulness.......
...Amen my precious friend...
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
You left out one key thing. None of those verses ever say that a person has lost his or her salvation OR CAN LOSE IT AFTER THE PERSON FREELY ACCEPTS SALVATION AS A FREE GIFT. I would agree with you that following Jesus is more than saying that you are a Christian. Anyone can claim Christ as Savior, but those who are truly saved will bear visible fruit. So here is my question to you, “What is meant by fruit?” The clearest example of Christian fruit can be found in Galatians 5:22-23 where Paul describes the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There are other types of Christian fruit (such as praise, winning souls for Christ), but this list provides us with a good summary of Christian attitudes. True believers will manifest these attitudes in their lives to an increasing degree as they progress in their Christian walk (2 Peter 1:5-8). This has nothing to do with someone losing his or her salvation as some would think, since it's clear from these verses that God cares about the fruit we bear as a result of our salvation, and I am hoping you are getting my point here.

It is these true, fruit-bearing true Christians who have the guarantee of eternal security/salvation, and they will persevere to the end. There are many Scriptures that bear this out. Romans 8:29-30 outlines the “golden chain” of salvation by pointing out that those who were foreknown by God were predestined, called, justified, and glorified. There is no loss along the way. Philippians 1:6 tells us that the work God began in us, He will also finish. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that God has sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until we possess it. John 10:29 affirms that no one is able to take God’s sheep out of His hand. There are many other Scriptures that say the same thing—true believers are eternally secure in their salvation.
Dear antredd...before one can even begin to discuss "fruit"...one needs to first understand what makes for a good "root" system...rich, fertile...well watered (by the anointing of the Holy Spirit)...soil.
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