City gets $25 million for streetcar (Cincinnati, Lexington: prices, buses, to move)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

Anyway, this streetcar thing. Did they ever specify where the operating funds were coming from?

Seems that would be the expesne to be concerned about, not so much this up-front capital cost.

Oh it was going to pay for itself through the usage fees - Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.

[Dayton Sux]

^
seriously?

[Wilson513]

The estimates for deficit operating costs for rail have always been wildly incorrect.

Further, the operating costs reported by the operators of these systems range so much that it is a certainty that the numbers are fabricated. Suffice it to say that for planning purposes, one should expect a small system to subsidize 80% of the cost of operation. If you have 5000 people a day riding at $1.00 that would be $1,825,000 of fare revenue. That comes from the feasability study here:

http://www.cincystreetcar.com/docs/C...ibility006.pdf

Then, if you have $1,825,000 of fares revenue, you sould expect to require $9,150,000 of annual subsidy using the 80% number. Nowhere, has anyone ever disclosed that the City could be saddled with that kind of cost. But, using others' experiences, that is what it would be. And, is that a big surprise? Not to me.

[Dayton Sux]

^
The operating subsidy was always the Achilles Heel for this concept for me. Where was it going to come from?

This was a big deal in Los Angeles, where the public transit authority was cutting back on bus service...essentially cannibalizing the bus system to subsidize a subway line that had limited use to bus riders, which led to sort of a transit-users uprising against the transit authority there.

I think if we wanted to make mass transit useful or less of a hassle we'd increase frequency of bus operations, make that system more user-freindly and less of a hassle. One way would to increase frequency of service as much as expanding service.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

^
The operating subsidy was always the Achilles Heel for this concept for me. Where was it going to come from?

This was a big deal in Los Angeles, where the public transit authority was cutting back on bus service...essentially cannibalizing the bus system to subsidize a subway line that had limited use to bus riders, which led to sort of a transit-users uprising against the transit authority there.

I think if we wanted to make mass transit useful or less of a hassle we'd increase frequency of bus operations, make that system more user-freindly and less of a hassle. One way would to increase frequency of service as much as expanding service.

You are quite right about the bus service being the answer. Improving bus service and charging appropriately leads to teh correct economic result. there will come a time when people will choose a bus over a private car for certain travel. Buses are scalable trains are not.

I am astounded that young people do not immediately see that trains are static. Buses and cars are dynamic. Trains are scalable within a very very narrow range. buses are infinitely scalable.

The money was coming out of the general operating fund of the City (although Casino revenures were earmarked) competing with pools and health centers and trash, fire and police. Ridiculous.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

I think if we wanted to make mass transit useful or less of a hassle we'd increase frequency of bus operations, make that system more user-freindly and less of a hassle. One way would to increase frequency of service as much as expanding service.

Amen. The thing that sticks with me 35 or 40 years after being a regular bus rider in Lexington was the waiting, waiting, waiting and more waiting for the bus to come along. At my current age and physical condition that would go way beyond inconvenience to actual physical hardship.

But yeah, it boggles the mind to think what could be done to improve and expand the bus system with the total $$$ involved in the streetcar project.

[Dayton Sux]

^
You can take the conveyor belt approach to running a bus line, like they did in Chicago, where the waits used to be really short between busses, or you can take the railroad approach, where the waits are longer. I think you are going to wait, one way or another, which is why people prefer cars. Only a few places were its more of a hassle to drive than take a bus or train.

@@@

Anway, heres an article on streetcar expansion in New Orleans, which probably isnt a good example since Cincy and New Orleans are different cities.
A Desire Named Streetcar....and they cite what I've read before, about ridership increasing on streetcars vs busses:

People simply like streetcars better than buses—studies suggest that ridership typically increases by about one-third when streetcars replace a bus route.

I just find this fascinating. Two forms of transit, no real superiority of one over the other in terms of service or frequency or schedules (and busses have the cheaper operating & captial cost), but there is apparently a preference for the one on rails.

[Wilson513]

People have decided: private cars is what they want. Here's one of many many reasons:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az4qASdPD4Y

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

People have decided: private cars is what they want. Here's one of many many reasons:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az4qASdPD4Y

Probably the single most ridiculous thing I've seen on this forum to date.

First: Are you actually suggesting that public transportation is a bad idea in Manhattan and that residents there should each have a private car? Second: Your fallacious conclusion is so elementary and generalizing that you're actually devaluing your entire argument. That's like arguing that people have decided rail transportation is what they want due to road rage and idiot drivers. Tell me, how many fatal auto accidents have we had in Greater Cincinnati just this month?

Just from the last 24 hours in the Tri-state:

Driver gets 7 years for running over, killing boy | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

DUI checkpoint Friday night | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

EB Ronald Reagan Highway reopens after crash | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

Murder charges in deadly Downtown crash | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

Victim identified in West Chester crash | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

Loveland grad dies in crash | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

Green Township chase ends in crash | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

Yet you troll youtube in order cherry pick an NYC story about a subway food fight? Unreal

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

People have decided: private cars is what they want. Here's one of many many reasons:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az4qASdPD4Y

Fights like that are rare on the Subway or Bus , its usually staged or defused before it gets to an explosion point.