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Old 09-13-2010, 10:10 PM
 
405 posts, read 771,348 times
Reputation: 140

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This is a pretty nasty, ugly, even ignorant thread. Granted, I don't like the high levels of poverty and crime in Cincinnati. In fact, I find it depressing. But to refer to people as "vermin" etc. is ignorant. The fact is, Cincinnati has a huge problem with a vast underclass that practically lives in a different culture, is racked by lack of education, unemployment, crime, drug use, teen pregnancy all tied up in a vicious cycle that hasn't changed much in 50 years-- but the numbers affected have grown. It is a real problem for the city, as the blight spreads through many neighborhoods. It seems quite likely to me that blight will win and Cincinnati will become another Detroit. The posts here sound like something from the 1950's, where people didn't care where the "poor residents" of a neighborhood went, as long as they left their gentrification project (thereby enabling slimy realtors and developers to make their precious profits.). But, with at least 30% of Cincinnati living in poverty and a quagmire, there are too many to move, and you are just dumping the problem elsewhere (like Price Hill, Westwood etc). No one in Cincinnati seems to have much of an answer, but the attitude in these posts is even worse: just "please sweep the garbage into my neighbors lawn and it isn't my problem anymore".
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:25 AM
 
2,886 posts, read 4,090,375 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
This is a pretty nasty, ugly, even ignorant thread. Granted, I don't like the high levels of poverty and crime in Cincinnati. In fact, I find it depressing. But to refer to people as "vermin" etc. is ignorant. The fact is, Cincinnati has a huge problem with a vast underclass that practically lives in a different culture, is racked by lack of education, unemployment, crime, drug use, teen pregnancy all tied up in a vicious cycle that hasn't changed much in 50 years-- but the numbers affected have grown. It is a real problem for the city, as the blight spreads through many neighborhoods. It seems quite likely to me that blight will win and Cincinnati will become another Detroit. The posts here sound like something from the 1950's, where people didn't care where the "poor residents" of a neighborhood went, as long as they left their gentrification project (thereby enabling slimy realtors and developers to make their precious profits.). But, with at least 30% of Cincinnati living in poverty and a quagmire, there are too many to move, and you are just dumping the problem elsewhere (like Price Hill, Westwood etc). No one in Cincinnati seems to have much of an answer, but the attitude in these posts is even worse: just "please sweep the garbage into my neighbors lawn and it isn't my problem anymore".
I'm not sure I agree that Cincinnati's going to become another Detroit anytime soon, and I'm not sure my own attitudes about this issue are above reproach. But a lot of what you wrote is extremely articulate and extremely true. Thank you.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,896,122 times
Reputation: 2059
studies have shown gentrification improves a local economy and provides work for those willing and improves the standard for the poor in the neighborhood. i see neighborhood revitalization, particularly historical restoration, as providing so many opportunities for the local residents. people used to be afraid to say gentrification, but not anymore, and i'm grateful that we can call things what they are.

there are real problems with speculators over pricing and stalling out development or even killing development by expecting prices based in how things will be after the turn-around, but that is the topic for another thread.

if others want to sit back and say blight will win, or even blight should win so that we don't gentrify, that's fine, but that is not happening here. comparing Cincinnati to Detroit is silly. we're not manufacturing based or auto industry base. our economy is doing fine and our population is growing

American Thinker: Gentrification is Good for the Poor and Everyone Else
Gentrification: Not Ousting the Poor? - TIME
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati near
2,539 posts, read 3,501,020 times
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I don't think anyone here wants to see poverty or a widening class divide, but many people that live or work in OTR or local neighborhoods are fed up with the well intended social policies that help to create and sustain this "vast underclass that practically lives in a different culture, is racked by lack of education, unemployment, crime, drug use, teen pregnancy all tied up in a vicious cycle that hasn't changed much in 50 years" .
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:30 AM
 
2,886 posts, read 4,090,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy View Post
I don't think anyone here wants to see poverty or a widening class divide, but many people that live or work in OTR or local neighborhoods are fed up with the well intended social policies that help to create and sustain this "vast underclass that practically lives in a different culture, is racked by lack of education, unemployment, crime, drug use, teen pregnancy all tied up in a vicious cycle that hasn't changed much in 50 years" .
Those social policies concern me, too. They haven't worked. I don't know what the answer is. Ever notice how sometimes you hear about some stunningly innovative and effective school or social program somewhere else, and wonder "why doesn't everybody do that? Why don't we do that here? Why does that seem like rocket science when it's just common sense?"

But as Wolden points out, dehumanizing the individuals involved does nothing to solve the problem. All it does is create an illusion of comfort and superiority for people who are not members of that underclass. An attitude of compassion will not necessarily solve all or even any of the problems, but it's bound to go a lot farther than an attitude of contempt.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Middletown, Ohio
1,730 posts, read 2,289,757 times
Reputation: 6460
Lightbulb Well Said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Perry View Post
Those social policies concern me, too. They haven't worked. I don't know what the answer is. Ever notice how sometimes you hear about some stunningly innovative and effective school or social program somewhere else, and wonder "why doesn't everybody do that? Why don't we do that here? Why does that seem like rocket science when it's just common sense?"

But as Wolden points out, dehumanizing the individuals involved does nothing to solve the problem. All it does is create an illusion of comfort and superiority for people who are not members of that underclass. An attitude of compassion will not necessarily solve all or even any of the problems, but it's bound to go a lot farther than an attitude of contempt.
The last paragraph of your post, Sarah, spoke volumes, and is dead-on-point...but you have to take one thing into consideration---some folk are going to by-god think what they think, and if they think people are vermin, then by gosh, it's true, and NOBODY better question their 'non-verminyness' (is that even a valid term? LOL)...

Well, they can sit in their nice non-verminy neighborhoods, and sip tea with their pinkies extended, and call names and blanket-stereotype the 'lower classes' all they want...but if I may use a 'Bible quote' here for a minute---'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'...to me, that means mr and mrs non-vermin better not even LOOK like they're going to pick up a rock, because they're no better than anyone else, no matter how pious and simon-pure and superior they make themselves out to be
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:17 AM
 
10,139 posts, read 23,166,199 times
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In the recent past, OTR had a population of almost 25000 entirely poor folk. They are still poor for the most part and they no longer live in OTR. They live all over the city, many in assisted housing, many in just poor neighborhoods.

The remaining population of OTR of about 8000 persons consists of three types of people. First, there are the new residents some call yuppies and attach them to the term gentrification.

Second, there are the ill, the infirm, and the elderly. They are persons for whom a move from OTR is just not possible. They have been here too long, they have too much enertia to move, or in some cases, just can't get the resources to move out. Many of these people would like to move, they just can't. I support these people.

Then there are the vermin. the vermin like OTR because this is where they ply their trade. Whether that is drug addiction or prostitution, thievery or begging. This is the place they have to be in order to make their dysfunctional behaviors work. After all, you can be poor in Norwood, it is just not a good place to sell drugs on a street corner.

Oh, I know, there are a few folks who are not drug addicted or criminals or old or ill who stay down here because they have made a home in the subsidized housing offered by the Franciscans or by the CMHA. And they deserve our support and respect. God bless them. If they are 5% of the OTR population, I'll eat my can of bear spray.

As far as where the vermin should go? I'd be really happy if they all got a one way ticket to a place far far away. If the police did their job most of them would be incarcerated. But I don't have to have a solution to reasonably object to their presence. Any more than if someone breaks into your home and goes for the refrigerator do you have to have an alternative place for them to have dinner.

Last edited by Wilson513; 09-14-2010 at 09:32 AM..
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:05 PM
 
405 posts, read 771,348 times
Reputation: 140
I am not saying gentrification is all bad. But, the fact is that well-to-do people moved into the "territory" of poor people, and now hate them because the poor people resent that they moved in. It is no different from well-to-do (or , moreso in Cincinnati, middle class) people hating "poor" people who move into their neighborhood (eg when they are driven out from OTR).

This is all very tired and as ancient as (pathetic) human history. It is what , essentially, causes wars: territory disputes. The ignorance is to not understand the causes of the hatred and to just keep repeating the same old, tired human mistakes again and again.

But the hatred expressed by Mircea, is really beyond the pale and it saddens me that people were endorsing this and not speaking out. Consider this hate filled invective:

"still infested with vermin (hopefully they'll be evicted soon)"
" the turds have been evicted"
"scum and vermin."
"stooopid pukes"
"force the street people to seek other areas to pollute."
"crack-o's"
"Tamar's House, the new place for prostitutes to ...give themselves a whorebath"
"people hanging around looking mean and nasty (and smelling even worse) and harassing people."

Someone so filled with hatred is probably not amenable to reason but that no one else in this forum raised the slightest protest is sad.

To say that you just wish that someone would "sweep up all the vermin and send them far away" is really just childish thinking. We need better solutions for the fact that society (as many of us know and define it) has almost completely broken down for ~30% of city residents. Hopefully Cincinnati won't become Detroit, but the long timers can chart a really pretty rapid decay of many neighborhoods just in the last 20 years (the West side, Price Hill, College Hill,Roselawn really the list includes too many neighborhoods). If you extrapolate out 20 years and add in a bad economy there is really cause for concern, with few solutions.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:25 PM
 
2,886 posts, read 4,090,375 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
...But the hatred expressed by Mircea, is really beyond the pale and it saddens me that people were endorsing this and not speaking out. Consider this hate filled invective:

"still infested with vermin (hopefully they'll be evicted soon)"
" the turds have been evicted"
"scum and vermin."
"stooopid pukes"
"force the street people to seek other areas to pollute."
"crack-o's"
"Tamar's House, the new place for prostitutes to ...give themselves a whorebath"
"people hanging around looking mean and nasty (and smelling even worse) and harassing people."

Someone so filled with hatred is probably not amenable to reason but that no one else in this forum raised the slightest protest is sad...
I consider some of the commentary in forums such as this to simply be offensive enough that I won't dignify it with a response. It's abundantly obvious that nothing you could say would shame such a person, or do anything to change their closed mind. They're beyond help.
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:04 PM
 
2,204 posts, read 5,951,095 times
Reputation: 383
Wolden, we're pretty much on the same page, aside from your assumption of middle & upper-class holding out open arms for the lower class to coming moving into their neighborhood with new section 8 development. This is far from a Cincinnati-specific social issue. It's an American issue.

I also got a little chuckle out of the Detroit comparison ... let's stay realistic here.
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