Best pizza in Cincy area...where?! (Cincinnati, Dayton: buying, approval, roach)

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by rrtechno

I still need to know: what is the difference, in general, between a NY style and a NJ style pizza. Is it the thickness of the crust?

I make it a point to not eat in New Jersey.

Originally Posted by rrtechno

What type of description would Food Network use to tell the difference between the two?

How the hell should I know. Here:

http://www.scrippsnetworksinteractiv...s/food-network

Ask them.

[kjbrill]

Tom...

I know you posted a link to a Chicago style pizza operation called Giordanos and they may be just fine. But my recollection of Chicgo style goes back to the mid-sixties and an outfit called Gino's East at 162 E Superior on the Near North Side.

To me, this has always been the epitome of Chicago Deep Dish. Back then I attended a bi-annual trade show called IMTS (International Machine Tool Show) associated with my industry. It is still a major money maker for Chicago. Originally it was held at the International Amphitheatre at the Chicago Stock Yards and then moved to McCormick place.

Once I found out about it, I would recruit a group to go to Gino's East. I would warn my Cincinnati associates only there for a couple of days to visit the show - NO you do not want to order an individual large, a medium split between 4 of you is more than enough. I took to the hotel many a box of pizza and jammed them into my small refrig. Could have easily lived on pizza for the duration of the 2-week show. And it was good pizza.

Whenever you have a successful operation you will have immitators. Over the years I became aware of the Pizza Unos, the Duos, and several others. But until I can see something which indicates they were not first, Ginos's East is still my noninee for the creator of the Chicago Deep Dish style. I certainly know they caught our attention back in the sixties.

Yes, Chicago Deep Dish is not your garden variety of pizza. I do like the fact it definitely fullfills the definition of a pie.

[ArtVandalay84]

Gino's is quite good. As is Lou Malnati's.

[rrtechno]

And still no defining descriptions, only opinions.

[Ohioan58]

Here's my impression of this battle:

Born and raised New Yorkers that love their signature regional pie consider a great pizza to be a particular type of crust, baking, and minimal toppings - usually limited to fresh or canned San Marzano tomatoes and fresh, not bagged and grated mozzarella. With a sprinking of fresh herbs like basil immediately after removal from the oven.

The point is MINIMAL toppings, not dumping a bunch of crap on a crust and thereby forcing it to bake unevenly. I've seen recipes for "true" NY style pizza and 95% of the NY-ness is in the preparation. Even the composition of the sauce is up for grabs and is non specific - great quality raw tomatoes, or sauce, and permitted.

The simplicity of the ingredients - just a few core ingredients - plus baking style seems to be what sets NYC style apart. The crust is leavened, hand tossed (so it has irregularities) and is baked at least at 700 F in a gas or coal fired stove, on stone. The crust must have some charring when it's served.

So I see "legitimate" NY style pizza more as a type of savory pastry or baked good, with extremely specific parameters.

The rest of the US takes the "pie" in the phrase "pizza pie" literally, and considers dumping lots of junky ingredients on top of a pizza with a mediocre, mass produced crust to be a criterion of "good". That's where you get these Domino's pizzas that look like someone dumped floor sweepings onto a crust.

Myself, I prefer a lightly bastardized NY inspired crust with more ingredients than a NYC person would consider prudent, and a spicy, herby, definitely not sweet sauce (IE, unlike the little kid-friendly LaRosa's junky sweet sauce). IE, where I deviate from NY style in my tastes is wanting more stuff in the sauce and the ingredient list, but not to the monster pizza extreme.

[kjbrill]

Ohioan58...

Thanks for the description of what constitutes a New York style pizza. Very clear and understandable. It also is in agreement with the descriptions I read about of pizzas served in Italy. The fresh hand-tossed dough is appealing along with the high quality tomato sauce without a lot of sugar, etc. Fresh, sliced mozzarella also sounds good unless it is sliced with a razor. The major part I believe is a high temperature oven with a stone baking platform. Quick baking to cook the crust without time to burn everything else. Thanks for your input.

But another question. I keep reading about the fold-it-in-half characteristic of New York pizza. Just what goes that mean? Does it mean you fold it over and eat it like and sandwich?

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

But another question. I keep reading about the fold-it-in-half characteristic of New York pizza. Just what goes that mean? Does it mean you fold it over and eat it like and sandwich?

In NYC pizzas are baked larger than what you find elsewhere. A large pie around here is going to be 14" or more commonly 16". NYC pies are typically 18" for a large and the slices are big and floppy. So you fold them in half. Capisce?

Ohioan58 does a good job explaining things. But let me make something certain. New York style pizza is not defined by absence of toppings. Any pizzeria will have a variety of pies sitting out. The works, pepper and onion, cheeze, pepperoni. Or they will make cheeze pies and add the toppings you request and run it through the oven again to heat up the toppings. I assure you that New Yorkers eat just as many toppings on their New York style pizzas as any one else. Ever hear of a garbage pie?

[kjbrill]

I have had plenty of pizzas I considered garbage, but I didn't brag about it. Just joking of course. But if New York pizza has just as many toppings as anywhere else, then I fail to see what makes it distinctive. Perhaps it is a case like I feel the only place which makes Cincinnati Chili is Cincinnati. I like many varieties of chili and have had some very good ones spread across the country, but Cincinnati style only here.

I also understand New Jersey style is a thin crust. My wife likes thin crust - I don't. Thin crust to me tastes like a hard cracker. I would prefer to put the toppings in a bowl or on a salad and eat them with a fork.

But it is great we can argue what a good pizza is or is not. I think most of us will agree there is no substitute for natural cheese, soybean concentrate and imitation cheese product just don't cut it.

And just because Papa John's takes a dough ball and puts it through a roller does not convince me it is anything close to fresh. I read an article on the internet which freely stated all of those types of ingredients are supplied out of central commissaries. In fact, one of my major complaints about Papa John's is their crust is always thick and wide at the edges and virtually devoid of toppings. If I want bread I will just order garlic bread. When I order a medium and end up with a small actually containing toppings I am disturbed. Probably why I have not been back to our local one since last Christmas season when all of the kids dropped in unexpectantly and we went to Papa John's since it is close. To me a major disappointment.

Until Marion's opens in Mason and Mellow Mushroom in West Chester I will have to bide my time for testing. Actually I am thinking about Aponte's here in Mason. The only thing which concerns me is they advertise their product as New Jersey style thin crust pizza. As I have stated thin crust and me are usually not friends, maybe they offer an option.

Aponte's is in the same building which also housed Pitrelli's Italian Ristorante for several years. Pitrelli's has moved across the street into what used to be the old Mason Post Office building. It has a much bigger parking lot and a lot more floor space. Haven't visited this location yet, but they appear from the number of cars to be doing well. Aponte's also appears to be thriving. Since the one restaurant moved across the street into a much large building and Aponte's took over the original space, I would lay a wager there is a family relationship between the two.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Just joking of course. But if New York pizza has just as many toppings as anywhere else, then I fail to see what makes it distinctive.

Until you actually have it you will probably never understand why it's distinctive. But you are in the minority here. 8 million New Yorkers disagree with you.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

Until you actually have it you will probably never understand why it's distinctive. But you are in the minority here. 8 million New Yorkers disagree with you.

Maybe 8 million New Yorkers believe they have the best. But over 300 million others go Huh? It is not that much different than 2 million Cincinnatians love Cincinnati chili, but the other 300 million go Huh?

Yes I understand there are people in Cincinnati who detest Cincinnati Chilii, just as I am sure there are those in NYC who detest New York style pizza. Part of what makes life in this country interesting - we can all agree to disagree.