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I think it sounds like a pretty difficult question to research. Aren't school board minutes public record, and are any of them online? I do think Wilson veered off topic, but he's right that a lot of stuff that makes it into the news media is threats--or in more neutral terms, speculation--on the part of administrators as to what they think they might cut.
Some minutes are online, but not most. I could search through the newspapers, but I thought this might be quicker. I am trying to compile info from around the state concerning budget cuts. I posted the same message on every CD forum from Ohio a few days ago. So far, I have no spedific cuts anywhere. Which really surprises me, given the state of the funding crisis.
I understand what you are saying about threats, but there is another way to look at it. If you are facing a budget shortage and have to make cuts, I would tell the community what will be cut if the levy does not pass. I look at this as the responsible thing to do.
Whatever your reason is, you can find specifics about school board cuts, either actual or projected in most of the local newspapers. BUt I don't may much attention to most of them since they are aimed at having the most adverse effect on parents. We start with busing, then sports and other extracurrciular activitites. Let's make it as unattractive as possible on the parents so they will vote for the levy the next time we put it up on a minor election so no one notices.
The one thing which is never addressed is 75% or greater of the school budget is spend for teacher salaries. In addition to the salaries is the sweet benefit package. Like it or not, it exceeds what the average person in private business is earning, and until they do something to bring more in line with what the average Joe Blow is earning out there I will be voting against the school levies, particular the operating costs ones.
In addition to reductions in staff, many schools have reduced many of the co-curricular activities that help build a well rounded individual.
For a specific example, Lakota Schools in Butler County has reduced the transportation to the minimum required by the state, which is transportation provided only for students K-8 living more than 2 miles from the school building. This move will cut nearly $1 million from the budget, but will also affect nearly half of the over 18,000 students.
Now, even though I prefer to remain on the topic originally posted, I have a difficult time letting fallacies posted as fact go unchallenged. in response to the statement:"Wait for few more years and you will have a few school school districts who will be paying more in pension and other post-retirement benefits than they do for active teachers.", the only pension and post-retirement benefits paid are those going into the pension system for the active teachers, as required by state law. Once a staff member leaves the system, for whatever reason, those payments stop. Private sector employees have Social Security payments made on their behalf, and although many people say that other pensions and 401Ks no longer exist, I have not seen that with my friends and relatives. I see no reason why public sector employees should not have retirement benefits.
Look at the pension plans. My friends retired from the Cleveland and Lakewood Public Schools at age 52 with 30 years of service receiving 67% of their salaries (last five years of service) PLUS full medical for the rest of their life. That means that there will be a good number of retired teachers who will receive a pension LONGER than the years they served in the schools.
That pension probably was appropriate when teachers were grossly underpaid in the 40s-60s. These days, I think that most people would find it excessive.
Clarification on the full medical for life -
1 - I am a retired teacher - 30 years. I am leaving over 40% of my pension check every month to pay for health insurance for me and my spouse. In January that figure will increase to over $1400/month. A portion of that is for my insurance. We pay the full actual cost for my spouse. There is NO subsidy for that portion.
2 - Health insurance is NOT a GUARANTEED benefit of the retirement system. At any time we could be notified that insurance will no longer be available and we will need to find our own.
I am not relying on what I have heard someone say or what a friend has told me. This information is from personal experience.
The pension dollar amount is figured on an average of the 3 highest years, regardless of when they occurred. (At one time it was the 3 highest of your last 5 years)
As to the statement of being underpaid in the 40s-60s, I started my teaching career in 1974 at a salary of $7500. Classmates of mine in college who went into private business started at $15,000+. I played catch-up my entire career.
Whatever your reason is, you can find specifics about school board cuts, either actual or projected in most of the local newspapers. BUT I don't may much attention to most of them since they are aimed at having the most adverse effect on parents. We start with busing, then sports and other extracurrciular activitites. Let's make it as unattractive as possible on the parents so they will vote for the levy the next time we put it up on a minor election so no one notices.
The one thing which is never addressed is 75% or greater of the school budget is spend for teacher salaries. In addition to the salaries is the sweet benefit package. Like it or not, it exceeds what the average person in private business is earning, and until they do something to bring more in line with what the average Joe Blow is earning out there I will be voting against the school levies, particular the operating costs ones.
What does the "average Joe Blow" in private business earn? With what kind of education? What kind of experience? Are you really comparing apples with apples? My wife, with a Masters' and LOTS of other education (and fluency in a second language) could earn better money in the private sector but she happens to enjoy teaching. And school districts still have to compete with other employers for workers. I drive a truck, have an Associate's degree and make more money than a teacher in my wife's district with a Bachelors' and 5 years experience. That's not right, in my mind. (FWIW, I think teachers ought to paid FAR more to deal with some of the students and parents they deal with...)
Kjbrill, I'm frustrated with the Clear Channel/Fox News/Wall Street Journal mantra that we must get rid of every union and privatize everything so that entrepreneurs can run everything in this country. That way, THEY'LL be making the good money, hire the cheapest employees they can find so that yet another sector in the economy can have ever-lower pay and we can have even MORE Mcjobs in this country. But I'm getting far ahead of the current thread...
(Maybe my wife should just go get a job where she gets $50 to tell someone to not do something, $500 to write a letter to tell them not to do it, or $2500 to list the reasons why they shouldn't do it...)
Last edited by Crew Chief; 11-26-2010 at 08:56 PM..
Whatever your reason is, you can find specifics about school board cuts, either actual or projected in most of the local newspapers. BUt I don't may much attention to most of them since they are aimed at having the most adverse effect on parents. We start with busing, then sports and other extracurrciular activitites. Let's make it as unattractive as possible on the parents so they will vote for the levy the next time we put it up on a minor election so no one notices.
The one thing which is never addressed is 75% or greater of the school budget is spend for teacher salaries. In addition to the salaries is the sweet benefit package. Like it or not, it exceeds what the average person in private business is earning, and until they do something to bring more in line with what the average Joe Blow is earning out there I will be voting against the school levies, particular the operating costs ones.
This is really about over. Ohio school funding is in a pretty precarious state. First, the government schools are little more than propaganda agencies or babysitting services. The unionized teachers are bent on advancing incompetency. Most responsible parents have opted out of all but the very best school systems by sending their children to private schools. And those "very best school systems" are never unionized systems.
Every time a budget cut is even discussed, out come the teachers' unions, threatening the parents with cuts to things the parents care about and even involve the children in this dishonest charade.
When Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for using their collective bargaining against the government, he drew the map for how to deal with these dishonest teachers' unions. God bless him. Now all that is required is the backbone and resolve to stand up to them like Chris Christie did recently in New Jersey. Otherwise the underclass in the US has no chance of an education which will prepare them for life on the planet.And, whatever cuts are made as long as unions are in charge will be directed at the parents pocketbooks and not the real culprits inflating costs to the school system. The real culprit is the pensions, benefits, and salaries of teachers and teachers who have been promoted to management and are still union employees.
This is really about over. Ohio school funding is in a pretty precarious state. First, the government schools are little more than propaganda agencies or babysitting services. The unionized teachers are bent on advancing incompetency. Most responsible parents have opted out of all but the very best school systems by sending their children to private schools. And those "very best school systems" are never unionized systems.
Every time a budget cut is even discussed, out come the teachers' unions, threatening the parents with cuts to things the parents care about and even involve the children in this dishonest charade.
When Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers for using their collective bargaining against the government, he drew the map for how to deal with these dishonest teachers' unions. God bless him. Now all that is required is the backbone and resolve to stand up to them like Chris Christie did recently in New Jersey. Otherwise the underclass in the US has no chance of an education which will prepare them for life on the planet.And, whatever cuts are made as long as unions are in charge will be directed at the parents pocketbooks and not the real culprits inflating costs to the school system. The real culprit is the pensions, benefits, and salaries of teachers and teachers who have been promoted to management and are still union employees.
And your personal experience with the day to day operations and the specifics of school funding is ... ?
Wilson... We can't win against the pro teachers forces, they are too well organized. The fact the past decade has seen a virtual abolishment of private sector traditional pensions, employee health insurance contributions have skyrocketed, and 401K employer matches have dropped considerably or been eliminated, has no impact on them and their insular society. The voters are responding with the only method at their disposal - NO at the ballot box.
Schools are a service industry, that is a fact. And like most service industries, salaries is their dominant expense. But until the largest recipients of this, the teachers unions, begin to understand why and when they should stand up to bloated school curriculums, unwarranted programs, etc., they are headed down the same track that brought our automotive industry from the largest in the world to also rans. But unfortunately, like most unions, there is no resolve at the top to come up with actual solutions. That is not their purpose, heading the union is. The reachers have the same heads in the sand attitude as the automotive unions, and may very well suffer the same fate. But speaking of fate, there are still some UAW members who think everything is still normal.
I don't qualify myself to anonymous posters or have any desire to personalize this discussion. Please feel free to disagree with my comments.
Sorry, just trying to verify the validity of statements you post as facts. If you are presenting knowledgeable and verifiable facts and/or first hand information, I am more than willing to respect your comments and possibly even support them. If you are spewing out half-truths and here-say, trying to pass them off as facts, you are going to be asked to justify them.
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