Your thoughts on future rail transit (Cincinnati, Springfield: hotel, layoffs, income)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise

Let's look at this for a second... Is it not Mike that's making the insult here, assuming that we do not travel outside the 513 area code and are not aware that pretty much every major city is dabbling in rail right now? I'm leaning towards yes.

You are right on one score - dabbling. A whole lot of dabbling but not a lot of serious accomplishment. I can certainly agree increased rail service is desirable, but cannot agree in this current and forseeable economy it can possibly compete with bus since 90% of the infrastructure already exists.

And if it is a matter of fuel consumption and pollution, then let's put power lines over the express bus routes and convert them to electric. I am old enough to remember the trolleys which replaced the streetcars. Still confined to where the power lines were, but a lot more flexible for passenger pickup/dropoff than the rails.

And speed should not be a factor. Given an open venue devoid of stoppages, express route buses should easily be capable of a 20 mile commute in 20 minutes. This covers what, about 95% of metropolitan Cincinnati?

But in addition, all of the larger suburbs around Cincinnati which now have a substantial percentage of the area employment need a local shuttle system to get employees to and from their place of work. This is also true of the City itself. For the majority of the suburban areas this does not exist. How to fund/operate such a system must be part of any mass transit proposal or it is doomed to failure.

The car dominates because it gives the owner freedom of choice - go where I want to go when I want to go! Granted this may have to give ground to the realities of reduced resources, escalating fuel costs, etc. But it will be a hard fight. So far I have not seen specific proposals from the pro-rail group which address the situation of personal convenience for daily travel. For a large part of my life, I have been very happy my choice to live in Cincinnati kept me isolated from the commuter train jimbo-jumbo of the East Coast around NYC, Boston, etc.

Yes we need alternative transportation. But we also need something beyond a boy-scout approach to the problem. Citing such factors as the coefficient of friction between a steel rail and wheel is just not enough to swing the deal. And this takes a whole lot more than just DABBLING with the subject. This is where my pessimism likely shows through, as I am not sure our current political climate is capable of tackling any problem, small or large.

[Cincy-Rise]

KJ, you're playing the same card... It's over. It's a past-tense accomplishment. We have plenty to look at.

Keep the bus system. Build lightrail. Build streetcars throughout our 4,300 ppl per square mile neighborhoods and you've got a perfect system. One thing is for certain, we have to relive our roads and pump the breaks on our lane expansions. Our current infrastructure wasn't built to withstand the amount of vehicles traveling on them currently.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

The car dominates because it gives the owner freedom of choice - go where I want to go when I want to go!

You are exactly right! How many people have kids to drop off before work and pick up after? What about soccer practice and games, basketball practice and games , band practice, music lessons, doctor appointments. etc.

Rail transit worked in a past much simpler time or for people with enough incomes to afford to hire someone to perform the task of child care.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by The Don

You are exactly right! How many people have kids to drop off before work and pick up after? What about soccer practice and games, basketball practice and games , band practice, music lessons, doctor appointments. etc.

Rail transit worked in a past much simpler time or for people with enough incomes to afford to hire someone to perform the task of child care.

And, that happy little car sits in the parking lot waiting for the next task all day if needed without consuming a drop of gas while the 250,000 pound locomotive with its 8 80,000 pound cars run up and down the line fulfilling a schedule some bureaucrats think is a good idea.

[Cincy-Rise]

Originally Posted by The Don

You are exactly right! How many people have kids to drop off before work and pick up after? What about soccer practice and games, basketball practice and games , band practice, music lessons, doctor appointments. etc.

Rail transit worked in a past much simpler time or for people with enough incomes to afford to hire someone to perform the task of child care.

Oh how sheltered we are!

Was talking to a friend the other day who recently moved to Minneapolis and we were talking about his commute and it was brought up how he thought it was crazy how many of his employees don't own cars, he realized they didn't have to. I asked him to elaborate on it and basically all transit in Minneapolis is owned by the same transportation group. They offer unlimited access for a monthly fee.

As much as I love Cincinnati, we are very - very behind the times in this area. :-(

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise

Oh how sheltered we are!

I assume you mean: "Oh how sheltered you are."

Really, C-R, I'm doing you a favor here. You need to re-read your posts and see if you can eliminate the diminutive personalization, insult, disqualification, etc. You don't need to do this stuff. We value your opinion. We just don't agree with it.

[kjbrill]

Wilson... Some people just don't get it. I am sure you and I do not see eye to eye on many things, but we are not going to insult each other over it. There are those who cannot stand to be disagreed with. After all, they have studied the situation and made a rational decision on the proper direction to go forward, and therefore it is an open and shut case. Any distracting opinion is just plain wrong and to be belittled for their lack of perception.

This is also my frank summary of the entire political climate in this nation. Let's just square off and let the ones with the most influence and money win. A real good reason why I dropped my political party affiliation, though they obviously haven't gotten the message.

I am smart enough to realize we are facing a transportation metamorphsis - fossil fuels cannot last forever, and at the rate we are burning them since their discovery in the 1800s, they will be extinguished before the end of this century.

So if you have been paying attention, where should I be directing my attention on this good New Years Days 2011?

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Wilson... Some people just don't get it. I am sure you and I do not see eye to eye on many things, but we are not going to insult each other over it. There are those who cannot stand to be disagreed with. After all, they have studied the situation and made a rational decision on the proper direction to go forward, and therefore it is an open and shut case. Any distracting opinion is just plain wrong and to be belittled for their lack of perception.

This is also my frank summary of the entire political climate in this nation. Let's just square off and let the ones with the most influence and money win. A real good reason why I dropped my political party affiliation, though they obviously haven't gotten the message.

I am smart enough to realize we are facing a transportation metamorphsis - fossil fuels cannot last forever, and at the rate we are burning them since their discovery in the 1800s, they will be extinguished before the end of this century.

So if you have been paying attention, where should I be directing my attention on this good New Years Days 2011?

It is the process that is broken, not the technology or the lack of natural resources that is our problem. The process has been commandeered by the statists who are determined that the federal government pick the winners and losers in a technology race. Its just crazy.

For my part, I embrace the increasing cost of fossil fuels as the engine for technological advancement. Until gas is costing some certain amount (the amount of which we do not know and cannot control) there will not be a substitute that is viable over a long period of time.

An example of the futility of allowing the government to make decisions on this is the debacle of the lithium ion powered car, the Volt.

What is the availability of lithium manganese oxide anyway? Did I notice a lithium manganese oxide mine on the way to work today? I don't think so. Let's guess which terrorist country owns all the raw materials. Hmmmmm?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/17164121-post32.html

I am very much an optimist on this topic if just we can wrestle control away from the bureaucrats and let innovation operate in a free environment as it has in the past.

[DarkWolf]

The Sad thing is , there are a ton of cities smaller then Cincy with Streetcar / BRT / LRT system in planning like.. All the cities listed have gotten calls form developers wanting to know when the line would be up....its an Economic driver for small cities. I guess you guys can't see that , hopefully later this decade when all these cities open there systems you'll change your mind...

Cambridge
Stamford
Portland
New Haven
Bridgeport
Springfield
Worcester
White Plains
New Brunswick
Lancaster
Binghamton
Newark
Jersey City
Camden
Trenton
Harrisburg
Annapolis
Alexandria
Arlington
Wilmington
Salem
Penns Grove

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The Sad thing is , there are a ton of cities smaller then Cincy with Streetcar / BRT / LRT system in planning like.. All the cities listed have gotten calls form developers wanting to know when the line would be up....its an Economic driver for small cities. I guess you guys can't see that , hopefully later this decade when all these cities open there systems you'll change your mind...

We see it and we understand it which apparently you do not.

Every day in Cincinnati a developer or investor starts a re-hab or a building. Sometimes two. And, if there is going to be a $150,000,000 toy streetcar running on McMicken Ave., subsidized by the taxpayers, then as a developer I would sure like to be there as opposed to ten blocks over in the same neighborhood. But what you advocates misunderstand is the issue of whether that development is "new money" that would otherwise not be spent.

We know that there is no "new" retailing or recreational effect from these attractions. People don't magicallly spend another $20 a week on ice cream just because there is a new ice cream parlor next to the streetcar station. They just buy it there instead of the other place where they bought it before.

So you prove that people come to Cincinnati from New Jersey and plop down a couple hundred thousand dollars to live on McMicken Street (which BTW is a crack head slum) because of the toy streetcar and then you will have made a point.

I believe that there is so much money our population has to spend on housing, like ice cream, and they will spend it in Hyde Park where I live if they don't spend it to live next to the toy streetcar. You prove otherwise.

=================================

BTW, did you say "economic driver"? What the heck is that? The streetcar gets built and some people are compelled by enthusiasm to own two houses? One where they live now and one next to the toy streetcar? Or are you just talking about the ice cream parlor closing in OTR and moving next to the streetcar because it is a better location now that the freeloaders are riding up and down all day on the new ride and no longer stop by the old place.

Seems like real estate sales people make money when people move from A to B even if there is no economic benefit. Isn't this what this is all about?