What's With The Streetcars? (Cincinnati, Washington: place to live, young professionals, vs.)

[Sarah Perry]

[quote=Traveler87;22114943]...I seriously hope you're joking. Lexington doesn't even have anything like the amount of development going on in Cincy, let alone something like Mercer Commons or Washington Park. Forget the bigger projects going on across Cincinnati. I mean if the construction of a new Applebees is your thing, than I can see why you would think that is great news!...quote]

It didn't occur to me that anyone would think I was comparing development on a dollar-for-dollar or per-square-foot basis between Lexington and Cincinnati, or any metro area of 2 million for that matter.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by Traveler87

..Great graphs!Proves to everyone who is against the "toy train" that it is a hell of a lot more than that.

The first graph, I would assume, is easily fact-checked. I'd just warn you, though, that the other might be based on solid, generally accepted and documented facts, or may just as well be something someone simply decided to draw and post somewhere to make a point. I really don't know. There are absolutely no citations or explanations, at least not on this forum. So you really should be careful of looking at something you see online and thinking it "proves" anything.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

The first graph, I would assume, is easily fact-checked. I'd just warn you, though, that the other might be based on solid, generally accepted and documented facts, or may just as well be something someone simply decided to draw and post somewhere to make a point. I really don't know. There are absolutely no citations or explanations, at least not on this forum. So you really should be careful of looking at something you see online and thinking it "proves" anything.

Yet you spend part of one day in Lexington and are ready to proclaim: The amount of new development there, both commercial and residential, is astounding compared to what I see on a day-to-day basis here.

That is, before completely backtracking when presented with the multitude of major development here that you either ignored to make your point or were completely unaware of.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

The first graph, I would assume, is easily fact-checked. I'd just warn you, though, that the other might be based on solid, generally accepted and documented facts, or may just as well be something someone simply decided to draw and post somewhere to make a point. I really don't know. There are absolutely no citations or explanations, at least not on this forum. So you really should be careful of looking at something you see online and thinking it "proves" anything.

Furthermore, correlation is not causation. There is a good chance that the reasons that the city lost population (race riots, neighborhood demolition etc.) are what caused the streetcar to lose economic viability. Anyone that thinks that the shutting down of the streetcar is the driving force behind urban decline in Cincinnati, or any other city, is a special kind of stupid.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy

Furthermore, correlation is not causation. There is a good chance that the reasons that the city lost population (race riots, neighborhood demolition etc.) are what caused the streetcar to lose economic viability. Anyone that thinks that the shutting down of the streetcar is the driving force behind urban decline in Cincinnati, or any other city, is a special kind of stupid.

You put that so well. I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to waste the key strokes.

It is "analysis" such as the above that explains why the street car was approved by the voters.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by CinciFan

Still looking. Found these along the way and thought they were interesting.

What two rediculous graphs. Can anyone seriously believe it was the streetcars which gave rise to Cincinnati's population increase between 1890 and 1950? I was alive and riding public transportation during part of that time and remember the streetcars well. Couldn't wait until those noisy, clanky, uncomfortable, snail speed beasts were ripped out. And to intimate it is the lack of streetcars which caused Cincinnati's population to decrease from 1950 to the present. Cincinnati's population decrease is strictly due to not keeping pace with schools, safe neigborhoods, city maintenance, and all the daily things families demand which is why they fled to the suburbs, where by the way there are no streetcars.

And that population graph. We have the very telling graphic that none of the cities have grown very significantly in the past decade. But look at the population growth along the streetcar routes - WOW! But apparently not enough to affect the city as a whole. What is lost in this is if you build a shiny new streetcar route through a wasteland you might expect to see some residential development, i.e. population growth. But it is the old story of statistics. If you start out with 4 people in an area and increase it to 40 you have a 1000% percent increase. Still a drop in the bucket but a 1000% increase. And if 30 of those 40 relocate from another area with the city there is no population increase at all.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by abr7rmj

Yet you spend part of one day in Lexington and are ready to proclaim: The amount of new development there, both commercial and residential, is astounding compared to what I see on a day-to-day basis here.

That is, before completely backtracking when presented with the multitude of major development here that you either ignored to make your point or were completely unaware of.

I think you should be really careful of reading my OPINIONS or even my personal OBSERVATIONS and thinking they prove anything, either. If you don't know the difference between such opinions and a graph that purports to illustrate hard, statistical facts, then you need more help than anyone on this forum can give you. Enough said.

[Sarah Perry]

Yikes. It's so preposterous to imply that shutting down the streetcars caused Cincinnati's population decline that it simply didn't register on me. I'm gonna retract what I said about the charts being "interesting." I'm actually embarrassed. Whew.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I think you should be really careful of reading my OPINIONS or even my personal OBSERVATIONS and thinking they prove anything, either. If you don't know the difference between such opinions and a graph that purports to illustrate hard, statistical facts, then you need more help than anyone on this forum can give you. Enough said.

I'm not involved in the discussion of this graph that you and others are and am not engaging in this population dialogue. I'm just responding to your assertion that Lexington is enjoying some sort of prosperous boom that Cincinnati isn't due to a few construction projects you happened to drive by.

I could take you on an hour-long tour of Cincinnati and you'd probably be even more astounded with what's going on.

FWIW, I don't believe the removal of the streetcars caused any sort of population shift toward the suburbs beginning in the late 1950s. Instead, I think the original streetcars' demise were an inevitable effect of the population drain, not the cause.

The statistical information from other cities, however, does show irrefutable proof that development and population is drawn to streetcar lines.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by abr7rmj

The statistical information from other cities, however, does show irrefutable proof that development and population is drawn to streetcar lines.

Come on now, irrefutable proof. Maybe you should be running for national office.