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Old 08-21-2011, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,374,610 times
Reputation: 1920

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Arctic_6 ... WOW!

Your comments exude concepts I have no familiarity with. Sounds like some doctoral thesis.

All I simply know is the welfare state has not solved a single problem and in fact may be creating more. Let's see, do not work and collect X, work and collect Y. Now when X and Y are about the same, why work? Most people, even underprivileged ones, are not stupid enough to work for nothing.

Our great county gives out more foreign aid than just about the rest combined. For this, what do we receive - condemnation. In the interim our own poor class gets worse and worse, particularly from the standpoint of violence in their lives.

I do not claim to have the answers. I just know something else needs to be tried. For instance, instead of providing assistance to unwed mothers, institutionalize the kids. Yes, I know this is harsh. But is leaving the kids in their environment with little chance of success any better?

Reinstitute the WPA programs. Require anyone receiving public assistance of any kind to commit to working in these programs as compensation. Require all publicly funded projects to have a percentage of these workers. Yes, the supervision costs may be high and the productivity low, but just maybe the participants may learn a job skill.

Our current programs have not broken the life cycle of poverty. We need something bold and inventive. So far I have not seen anything out of the sociality sector other than gobbledygook. They are great at giving explanations, but a closer inspection says What the H--l are you talking about? Human response is not all that complicated. People basically want:
. The ability to earn a living and feel good about themselves.
. The ability to raise a family.
. The ability to feel they are progressing.
Now what is so complicated about that? Yes the actual execution is more complicated than the model.

Society sponsored social justice will always be fraught with problems. We just have to hope we can climb above the primates.
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:25 AM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,440,335 times
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Most every person has a limit of how much pain they will endure to make the difficult choices that life presents. Our social service network has made it their mission to eliminate that pain. Ergo, since a person cannot starve in our society, unless they are really determined to do so, some can never make the painful decision between alcohol and death until it is far too late to matter.

Work is no fun if you have no skills, but a decision to work or to starve is an easier one then to get welfare or work.

Being clean of drugs is a difficult decision if one must choose to sleep under a bridge instead of public housing in order to continue drug use.

Finishing high school is hard for many children when the choice is to make money as a street hustler instead of a UPS driver, but it is an easier choice if the alternatives were less attractive.

I have heard that people get employed when their unemployment runs out. Longer unemployment insurance payment periods simply allow time for the unemployed to adapt to a lesser lifestyle and ratchet down their personal bottom.

When, in the absence of an education and drug free, a person is destined to a life of poverty, misery, and starvation, either they or their parents will get them to school with the schoolwork done and no drugs in their pocket. But, since there are essentially no adverse consequences, dropping out of school and getting into the drug scene is the role model to which many of our youth aspire.

Despite promises to the contrary, life is hard. Work is hard, endless troubles and losses visit every person at some time, you wake up you go to work which you hate (90% of people hate what they do for work), you come home to more hard things and then you die. In between there are rewards, but they do not come without their costs. No one lives a fairy tale life. The most important thing to accept is that life is hard. It would be nice if all persons were motivated by a higher purpose, but, for some of us, the pain has to be real pain in order for us to do the hard things in life.

For some of us, very lucky persons, we have found a pathway to find joy in life and in work. but don't kid yourself, that pathway is like chasing a rainbow. Most people never even come close to it. And, for them, they must make do with a difficult life every day. Pain is the only motivator that always works.

Last edited by Wilson513; 08-21-2011 at 08:23 AM..
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:40 AM
 
405 posts, read 754,275 times
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Wilson,
Nicely phrased post. But can you give specifics about how you would fix poverty. For example, The enquirer just reported that Hamilton County lost 38,000 jobs since the recession started. It is said there are 4-5 applicants for every job.

So, in your scenario, apparently poverty is caused by individuals and their own personal defects. Well, if you kick everyone off unemployment benefits, what jobs do you propose they find? Even "normal" people who previously had worked have had trouble finding jobs and are becoming poor. Is this due to their own defects?

Or do you actually believe there are jobs for everyone, just no one will take them?

Would you propose, in your scenario, that if there is zero social/government support, that people should be let to starve? Including children of these hapless unemployed? If you say you would not let them starve, how would you provide support, under what conditions?

What about medical care? Should children of poor people be deprived of all medical care (since it is largely government provided now)? Or, if you relent and give them medical care, should it be withdrawn when they reach 18?
If a poor person develops cancer and has no insurance, in your scenario should they just be left to die?

I would like to see what your proposal is and how it improves the current system. My own ideas weren't much good so I would like to hear something better.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:48 AM
 
405 posts, read 754,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
Arctic_6 ... WOW!

Our great county gives out more foreign aid than just about the rest combined. For this, what do we receive - condemnation. In the interim our own poor class gets worse and worse, particularly from the standpoint of violence in their lives.

I do not claim to have the answers. I just know something else needs to be tried. For instance, instead of providing assistance to unwed mothers, institutionalize the kids. Yes, I know this is harsh. But is leaving the kids in their environment with little chance of success any better?

Reinstitute the WPA programs. Require anyone receiving public assistance of any kind to commit to working in these programs as compensation. Require all publicly funded projects to have a percentage of these workers. Yes, the supervision costs may be high and the productivity low, but just maybe the participants may learn a job skill.

Our current programs have not broken the life cycle of poverty. We need something bold and inventive. .
I agree with many of the ideas:
1) no more handout: all welfare (in forms of cash) must be "earned" by some sort of work. Even if "only" picking up trash or cleaning graffiti
2) Stop the wars and corrupt foreign aid (there has to be some foreign aid). Take that money and start a WPA program so everyone who is willing to work, can get a job
3) Legalize drugs. I say this because the illegal drug system powers the ghetto economy. If it is removed, they would be "forced" to join society. Legalizing drugs would also create all sorts of jobs. It is wrong to take drugs, but it is also wrong to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol-- that doesnt stop anyone from doing it. Let them make their own stupid choices.
4) Restructure the juvenile "justice" system. It is a joke. Make boot camps for these messed up youth. Whip them into shape. Take them out of the game.


Well, this is all perhaps pointless. My opinion is that this vast urban poverty is a huge waste of resources and a drain on our society. It can't be ignored forever. Someone someday needs to fix it.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:18 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,440,335 times
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A timely topic given the shooting on Fountain Square last night. 16 year old thug involved somehow in the Black Family Reunion, an event that has spawned violence every year (usually just wilding fights through downtown), we will probably never get the whole story because everyone, from the CPD to the Enquirer to City Hall to the event organizers all have a vested interest in covering up what happened. Initial reports indicated that some thugs were trying to get guns into the "secure" area of the Black Family Reunion. I assume this is a reference to the secure area that was established following serious violence at this event several years ago. A copy of the police report is the only way the truth will out on this incident and you can bet the Enquirer will not be publishing that document any time soon.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:45 PM
 
2,492 posts, read 3,656,446 times
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The video footage is out, and the details have all been released. What more do we need to know? A group of teens were throwing guns into the BFR over a security fence into a children's play area. The 16-year-old allegedly got one, and his group left Sawyer Point and proceeded to walk to a packed Fountain Square. The police were following them and when he tried to go onto the square, he was approached aggressively by a cop. I have no problem with that since the cop knew he had a gun. And he was resisting arrest, as is clearly evident on the video. And, according to the police chief, he pulled the gun and had his hand on the trigger. At that point, someone is probably going to die - either the cop (and possibly other innocent bystanders) or the lone thug.

Now, today, the mom comes out and cries foul and said her son is "like any other teenager." Well, not really. Every other teenager doesn't carry guns into crowded public places. If this had turned out differently, perhaps with the officers' death or the death of a few innocent people eating ice cream at Graeters or drinking beers at Mynt, can you imagine the aftermath?

This has brought back some uneasy flashbacks to 2001, complete with the incredulous mom (in that case, Timothy Thomas' mom) blaming the police and saying how perfect her boy was - the same boy who has a rap sheet that includes such joys as armed robbery and assault.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:39 PM
 
405 posts, read 754,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abr7rmj View Post
The video footage is out, and the details have all been released. What more do we need to know? ...

Now, today, the mom comes out and cries foul and said her son is "like any other teenager."
This is exactly the same issue for why I started this topic. There is a large subsection of our city where "training " for crime starts very early (age 12) and people are well established criminals by age 16.

Contrary to what you say, though, consider this: maybe this IS NORMAL in that large poverty stricken culture in Cincinnati and many other cities. Maybe anyone who wants to SUCCEED in that drug driven, crime driven culture has to be tough and "criminal" to get anywhere. And, they can also be "normal" as the rest of society calls it, with decent grades, playing basketball.

Consider the star foot ball player who was shot and killed recently while committing a robbery.

This is the whole point of why I posted in the first place. I think very bad things are being taught as normal on the inner city streets and we need ways as a society to turn it around. Of course no one has figured out how to do this.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:07 PM
 
2,492 posts, read 3,656,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post

Contrary to what you say, though, consider this: maybe this IS NORMAL in that large poverty stricken culture in Cincinnati and many other cities. Maybe anyone who wants to SUCCEED in that drug driven, crime driven culture has to be tough and "criminal" to get anywhere. And, they can also be "normal" as the rest of society calls it, with decent grades, playing basketball.
If the Black Family Reunion on Sawyer Point and Fountain Square are part of a drug-driven, crime driven culture, then we're all in trouble. There is zero excuse for that thug, who had an enormous rap sheet at the age of 16, to be carrying a gun into places like that.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,374,610 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by abr7rmj View Post
If the Black Family Reunion on Sawyer Point and Fountain Square are part of a drug-driven, crime driven culture, then we're all in trouble. There is zero excuse for that thug, who had an enormous rap sheet at the age of 16, to be carrying a gun into places like that.
I totally agree with this position. Rather than deride a desirable and very well intentioned event, we should be discussing how to prevent reoccurrences of this type.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:28 PM
 
405 posts, read 754,275 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by abr7rmj View Post
If the Black Family Reunion on Sawyer Point and Fountain Square are part of a drug-driven, crime driven culture, then we're all in trouble. There is zero excuse for that thug, who had an enormous rap sheet at the age of 16, to be carrying a gun into places like that.
You are mis-stating the whole point of this thread!! My comment had nothing to do with the black family reunion which was being "crashed" by gun carrying teenagers!

Did you read this thread?? It is about the problem of very young CHILDREN who are being "taught" to carry guns and rob people and who by the age of 16 are hardened criminals! This is not uncommon in Cincinnati and it needs to be understood and changed!!
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