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Old 08-25-2011, 12:12 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,424,007 times
Reputation: 8239

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Well, I am a simple guy as I am sure you will agree. I do not have sufficient background in social science to parse these discussions in a meaningful way. So, I must remain at the extremes in order to be honest in my responses. Is the world more gray than I say it is? Do I see things more clearly than they really are. OK, I admit it. There is a lot of messy gray out there. But, if one goes to the extreme of being willing to say that poverty causes crime, I am there to say it doesn't. Is there a person for whom "but for poverty" he would not commit a crime? I am sure there is. That is the work of a social worker. To find and prevent that person from falling into the abyss of crime. But for most good people, they do not revert to crime regardless of their poverty. I have 8 80 or so year old poor folks living in my building, God Bless them, every one poor as a condition to their tenancy, and not one of them would ever commit the most minute crime. Why? Because poverty does not cause crime . . .in most people.
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:50 PM
 
89 posts, read 158,727 times
Reputation: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
But for most good people, they do not revert to crime regardless of their poverty. I have 8 80 or so year old poor folks living in my building, God Bless them, every one poor as a condition to their tenancy, and not one of them would ever commit the most minute crime. Why? Because poverty does not cause crime . . .in most people.
This is why I say the poverty-crime relationship is reflexive. Nothing in social science is absolute. The general theory is that people commit crimes when the perceived benefit of the crime outweighs the perceived cost of getting caught. Being grounded in 80 previous years of life (during which I'm assuming they weren't poor the entire time), they have a social and biographical context in which the idea of committing a crime has been reinforced as wrong. This is why I'm not arguing that poverty causes crime as an absolute. Not everyone who is poor commits a crime.

That's the contextual part of sociology: every situation is different and sociology deals with the aggregate. There are poor people in my family (I come from semi-rural, working class Southern roots) that don't commit crimes. But they're anecdotal, and to assume that the overarching statement that poverty has a direct causal (albeit also reciprocal) relationship to criminality is wrong because of those people is an aggregation fallacy. Aggregation fallacy is the assumption that data for the aggregate applies to individuals and individual life-chances, which it doesn't.

When, for example, sociologists said in the 1990s the average American family had 2.3 children, they didn't mean any individual family had 2.3 children. It means that on average American families have between 2 and 3 children, but more likely 2. Likewise, when I say that aggregate data shows a link between economic shifts and crime rates, or between poverty and crime as a causal relationship, I'm not saying anything about the individual. What I'm saying is that controlling for other factors which would situate each individual in a different social context and thus change his or her attitudes and experiences toward crime, extreme poverty exerts a pressure which makes crime appear to be more desirable. Outside of that there are numerous contextual reasons why crime is viewed as undesirable, explained
by other social processes which delineate what a society considers moral and immoral, biographical context, and personal inclinations instigated by previous experiences.

Society is immense and complex; social theory is always evolving and refining. There is not a social theory that doesn't have some anecdotal counterpoint, but the anecdotal counterpoints are decontextualized when used as evidence. Assertions of social processes are first and foremost grounded in the context of other social processes which explain exceptions.

To be honest, I respect you quite a lot. Anyone with that kind of conviction to personal beliefs is respectable, and commendable. I haven't meant to offend you or upset you in any way and if I have I apologize. I'm an academic, I'm invigorated by debate. I've learned from you during this conversation and I've learned as a result of what I've read to supplement the themes of this conversation. For that I wanted to thank you.

I didn't mean you any disrespect during this discussion, and I wish you all the best in the world. You seem to be successful, comfortable, and happy, and that's really all that I think should matter on the individual level.

And for the record, I'm aware I'm incredibly intellectually arrogant and I'm more confrontational than I like at times. It's a work related hazard I'm trying to overcome. :-P
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:23 PM
 
405 posts, read 753,922 times
Reputation: 140
Default update: 3 teens charged with murder

In this old post I was upset by the fact that 12 year olds were being trained, socialized, to use and play with guns and practice robbery.

Now we have a news story that 3 young teenagers are charged with murdering two people.

"The 16-year-old was incarcerated in a state juvenile court for two years, between August 2009and August of this year. He was convicted of a June 2009 aggravated robbery that occurred when he was just 13.

One of the 15-year-olds has been convicted of assault and criminal damaging. He was ordered to complete a work detail for both offenses, which occurred in January when he was 14."


This is just one example but seems to me a lot of very young kids are being raised as lawless sociopaths.



Teen murder suspects could be locked up for life | Cincinnati Breaking News
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
124 posts, read 140,882 times
Reputation: 159
Default Soup Kitchen (and Food Pantry) Patrons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
Given our current support system, those requiring soup kitchens and homeless shelters (private shelters) fall into three categories: drug and alcohol addicted, criminals released or awaiting incarceration, and the mentally ill.

Persons suffering from addictions should not be enabled which is all that soup kitchens and shelters do for them. They enable the addicted until they get so bad they cannot be helped and then they die. In the mean time, they steal and destroy property to support their addictions. Well meaning persons, like our Franciscans in OTR unintentionally make the lives of the addicted worse and prevent their recovery by enabling..
There's never an always, and always an exception. While digging myself out of debt, I often visited food pantries to stock my cabinet. I have not been unemployed in 18 years, I often work 50+ hours per week. I am a single father raising a teenage daughter.

It shouldn't be relevant to this discussion, but I will also add that I am a non-smoker and a teetotaler, so no one can argue I'm wasting money on my vices.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:33 PM
 
7,658 posts, read 5,411,885 times
Reputation: 14379
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
No wonder why Cincinnati seems to have such an endless supply of teenaged criminals. They are getting "trained" as early as age 12. Talk about a broken down society!

A Game Of Cops And Robbers Goes Too Far - Cincinnati News Story - WLWT Cincinnati

The link is dead?
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:32 PM
 
405 posts, read 753,922 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
The link is dead?
Lol-- the post is over a year old. You'd probably have to pay the Enquirer to get in their archive.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:05 PM
 
7,658 posts, read 5,411,885 times
Reputation: 14379
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
Lol-- the post is over a year old. You'd probably have to pay the Enquirer to get in their archive.
Hey, who looks at dates
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