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Old 08-26-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis and Cincinnati
682 posts, read 1,391,833 times
Reputation: 610

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Most of the Very early homes 1820-1850 were in Kenyan Barr. Federal architecture that we have very little of and of course blocks of single family townhouses circa 1850-1880. While OTR has similar architecture most of it was built as mixed use or tenement. To lose a collection of mostly single family homes that size, at least among those of us in the field of Historic preservation was a monumental error and most agree racially motivated which in the end wound up destroying several neighborhoods.

There is an interesting book that references kenmyon Barr from an urban planning and social impact called "Contested Ground: collective action and the Urban neighborhood "by Johm Emmeus. I think its online at google books, but its a facinating read about how city leaders in typical 'backroom fashion' destroyed a neighborhood and failed at its redevelopment.

Had Kenyon Barr survived I have no doubt Cincinnati would be a much different place as it would likely have been the first urban neighborhood to 'gentrify'
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,415,280 times
Reputation: 1920
I just don't understand the Broadway Commons bit with the ball park. It was too small a parcel of land to begin with. You might have wedged (yes I know about the wedge) the ball park in but where was the parking to come from?

How a ball park, with limited usage year around, was supposed to revitalize a residential area like OTR is beyond me. I am not sure a cassino will impact anything more than 20 feet outside of its front door.
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:15 PM
 
Location: West Palm Beach
620 posts, read 995,146 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
I just don't understand the Broadway Commons bit with the ball park. It was too small a parcel of land to begin with. You might have wedged (yes I know about the wedge) the ball park in but where was the parking to come from?

How a ball park, with limited usage year around, was supposed to revitalize a residential area like OTR is beyond me. I am not sure a cassino will impact anything more than 20 feet outside of its front door.
I agree with most your post, except for the statement that ballpark use is limited. There 80+ game played there a year, making it the most used sports facility, unlike Paul brown, which is used 20 days a YEAR. Nearly every weekend for 5-6 months of the year, there will be a ball game, so that's a significant amount of time.

Broadway Commons will be fine though, the Casino will handle that. The ballpark suits the riverfront better, and there will be a new neighborhood to support it.
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Old 08-26-2011, 05:37 PM
 
1,130 posts, read 2,032,051 times
Reputation: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
I just don't understand the Broadway Commons bit with the ball park. It was too small a parcel of land to begin with. You might have wedged (yes I know about the wedge) the ball park in but where was the parking to come from?

How a ball park, with limited usage year around, was supposed to revitalize a residential area like OTR is beyond me. I am not sure a cassino will impact anything more than 20 feet outside of its front door.
Actually, some site plans circulated at the time superimposed Cleveland's (then) Jacobs Field on the Broadway site and it fit quite nicely. The architects and engineers who studied Broadway universally disagreed with your assessment that site was too small.

For the parking question, at the time we were all used to Riverfront's easy parking...an expansive parking deck, surrounded by a sea of surface parking. I guess if we were interested in a stadium like the Astrodome or the ballpark in Miami, Florida, or Dodger Stadium, for that matter...out in the burbs, there was opportunity for that again. Recall that there was talk both in the 1960s and 1990s about the Blue Ash airport as a site for the stadium. Broadway required creativity, which was a bit too much for much of the public to get their heads around, but it was anything but devoid of opportunity. For example, there is considerable parking up and down the south side of Central Parkway, well within the distance that people are currently walking to GABP. The Broadway site itself provided opportunity for parking in the north east section heading up Reading. There is also space on the south side of E. Court for construction of parking, and the area down Eggleston has numerous surface lots that could have been developed. So, I believe, the parking concern was overblown, particularly when I have seen first hand how parking has been handled in downtown ballparks in St. Louis, San Diego, Phoenix, San Francisco, and several others. Unless you have visited these places, you simply don't understand how it can work.

And again, don't discount the notion that some type of "people mover", street car or otherwise, could have been deployed to circulate people around downtown and make more distant parking practical. I have often imagined how fun it might be to go downtown, park, have a bite to eat, jump on a street car to the game and have it there waiting for you. 80 home games and the accompanying development along the line from that traffic is infinitely more practical than any of the recent street car proposals that have been floated. Unfortunately, I don't have faith that my fellow Cincinnatians have the creativity to think something like this through, and I guess I was proven right.
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Old 08-27-2011, 01:30 AM
 
368 posts, read 519,925 times
Reputation: 333
the biggest mistake is a no brainer..instead of spending the money on pbs they could have made a deck over 71 and or tunneled it..thats the biggest problem..the seperation of downtown from the river..now hamilton county is in the hole for pbs which is already outdated compared to the newer stadiums..i do love gabp and a new stadium for the bengals was needed..but its sad to see the lost potential if the riverfront was seamlessly connected to downtown
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,415,280 times
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To me the complaint about I-71 distancing the riverfront from downtown is overblown. There seems to be no problem for thousands of people to crowd the river banks for Riverfest or fill the stadiums when desired. GABP is a little quirky due to the problem of its construction while maintaining Riverfront at the same time. To say PBS is obsolete compared to newer stadiums is only because they keep getting more humongous.

And since when is the riverfront not downtown. To me the location of the two stadiums is not a problem, much better than some outlying suburban location ala the Pontiac Silverdome. And Dodger stadium is also not a good example as they have problems filling it in a city several times the size of Cincinnati.

The whole reasoning for public financing of the stadiums was to bring people downtown.

The idea of a people mover, streetcar or trolley, to serve the stadiums, the new Banks entertainment district, Fountain Square, Arnoff Center, and over to the new Casino is much more attractive than the current proposed route. The idea is to make coming to events in the City an attraction to people. And much of this has to do with convenience.

Come into the City and park. Jump on a convenient people mover and go to dinner. Then jump on the people mover and attend a game. After the game, jump on the people mover and back to the parking to get the car. For those desiring a longer stay, book a room at a downtown hotel, park the car and leave it for the duration. Use the people mover to go where you want to go when you want to go. What is the people mover required to offer? clean, safe, low cost, and above all convenience.

Why is this concept so hard to comprehend? A single minded route to benefit one area versus a loop to benefit the City as a whole.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,387 posts, read 3,721,170 times
Reputation: 1759
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet_kinkaid View Post
the biggest mistake is a no brainer..instead of spending the money on pbs they could have made a deck over 71 and or tunneled it..thats the biggest problem..the seperation of downtown from the river..now hamilton county is in the hole for pbs which is already outdated compared to the newer stadiums..i do love gabp and a new stadium for the bengals was needed..but its sad to see the lost potential if the riverfront was seamlessly connected to downtown
Agree fully, chet-kinkaid! Decades ago, the notorious "Ft. Washington Way" severed Cincy's beloved riverfront from its DT, while "wholesale" (no pun intended) destruction of viable businesses there turned the area into the wasteland that soon sprouted the stadiums. So today, instead of a riverfront that would/could/should resemble that of Prague, Budapest, or Vienna, we now possess a generic playground for jocks. America at its best!

Last edited by motorman; 08-27-2011 at 05:41 AM..
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Bridgetown, Ohio
526 posts, read 1,263,004 times
Reputation: 144
I vote for Ft Washington Way and the Airport Debacle. Both seem to have a limiting affect on growth in the region.
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,415,280 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I vote for Ft Washington Way and the Airport Debacle. Both seem to have a limiting affect on growth in the region.
Why is the airport a debacle? The Blue Ash site would have been a debacle. Too small, too hard to get to, and the flight conjestion over town would have been horrendous.

Although retired now I flew out of CVG for many a year. Never thought the location to be all that inconvenient, as even from my home in Mason I could usually get to the airport in under 40 minutes. Compared to airports in other cities I visited it was a slam dunk.

The mistake may have been courting a single airline, Delta, in their hub making days. But this is not a result of urban planning, but rather an airport authority going after the big bucks. Just simple politics at their worse.

Ft Washington Way's remake to elminate the downtown ramps was a good step forward. For those who still object, then run I-71 across the current I-471 route into KY and seal off the downtown. Does anyone believe this is a viable alternative?

Many a city/town who avoided the interstates have seen their area die on the vine. A good example is Washington Courthouse Ohio. They fought to not have the interstate come close, a battle they won. So development has been virtually non-existent over several decades.
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,749,588 times
Reputation: 2058
the fort washington way situation reminds me of the debacle that is the lakefront roads in chicago. there is vibrant city life and then the next thing you know you are the only pedestrian around, walking in the dark under highways. of course, w ft. washington way you are at least above ground, but the city, pedestrian-crushing vibe is exactly the same. someday these highways will be gone or dramatically scaled back, but that is in the distant future.
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