Cincinnati... greatest mistakes in urban planning last 100 years?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by progmac

Would you be okay with 10% public housing in Mason, including in your subdivision/area?

Hell Yes, if it would contribute to solving the problem. It is the reaction of not in my area which likely results in much of the problem. Concentrating the underprivileged in one small area has been proven to not work. Nothing changes. The daily life and exposure is one with no glimpse of a future.

If you do not agree with speading the situation around to dilute the bad influences, what brainstorm do you have to solve the problem?

[kjbrill]

Just another comment. Somehow people have a conception everything in Mason is uber fancy suburb. That is not true. My neighborhood is about 40 years old and has a whole lot of simple, 3-bedroom ranches on slabs. Granted the lots are 2/3 - 3/4 acre. I am encouraged by the number of people I see buying these homes, adding a large addition on the back since the property can handle it, pouring new concrete driveways, and remodeling a small dated home into something quite livable and attractive. These are people weighing their options and deciding a 1960-70s ranch with 8-foot ceilings can provide all the living comfort they require. No vaulted ceilings or other wasted space, just the basics they need for the family to be comfortable.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Hell Yes, if it would contribute to solving the problem. It is the reaction of not in my area which likely results in much of the problem. Concentrating the underprivileged in one small area has been proven to not work. Nothing changes. The daily life and exposure is one with no glimpse of a future.

If you do not agree with speading the situation around to dilute the bad influences, what brainstorm do you have to solve the problem?

I'll be the first to say I don't know what the solution is. What IS a disaster for individual homeowners' property values is the effect of subsidized housing on single-family residential neighborhoods. All too often even a market-rate rental property turns into a problem, because tenants simply don't have the same investment in the neighborhood that homeowners do. Then layer on top of that a situation where tenants aren't even paying market rent, and you have a recipe for disaster.

kj, trust me, if suddenly 10% of the homes directly surrounding yours suddenly became Section 8 properties, it wouldn't take more than a year or two for your property values to tank. That wouldn't happen, of course, because the homes are too large. They'd have to construct some cheap-*ss apartments next door to you. I'm not going to speculate as to the causes of the effect on neighborhoods, nor paint all Section 8 recipients with the same broad brush. But the amount of crime that accompanies a concentration of this housing is just unbelievable. At least it is for the Section 8 complexes where I keep an eye on the statisics.

OF COURSE no one wants it in their neighborhood. The way the economy and property values are now, who can AFFORD to have it in their neighborhood? I certainly can't.

[kjbrill]

Sarah... I don't disagree with the negative effects. At the same time, what is an effective solution? It is obvious the current system does not work, in fact may actually increase the problem. So what needs to be done? Do we need a period where the public subsidies are suspended, and you either get out there and get a gainful job or starve?

I like to think I am a compassionate person. But the old adage of trick me once and it is my fault, but trick me twice and I am stupid does come to mind.

We need an answer and we need it quick. The number of deaths among the underpriviledged youth is appalling. The lure of quick money via drugs is overwhelming. Those who defend owning guns as an individual right just amaze me. Are they intending to go to war with their own neighbors? Pass some serious gun control laws and get them off of the streets. And don't give me a bunch of bull**** about hunting rights. A 410 shotgun is about the most humane hunting gun you can own. Its limited range at least gives the prey a chance you will miss.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Hell Yes, if it would contribute to solving the problem. It is the reaction of not in my area which likely results in much of the problem. Concentrating the underprivileged in one small area has been proven to not work. Nothing changes. The daily life and exposure is one with no glimpse of a future.

If you do not agree with speading the situation around to dilute the bad influences, what brainstorm do you have to solve the problem?

This is heartening to read. I have to wonder if, being older, maybe you see a bit past the idea that property values are the most important thing in the world. I would say that the post WWII "property value obsession" is perhaps the greatest barrier to significant social change in our country.

There is another side to that coin, of course, and that relates to the dramatic economic impact of people who are obsessed with property values.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by progmac

This is heartening to read. I have to wonder if, being older, maybe you see a bit past the idea that property values are the most important thing in the world. I would say that the post WWII "property value obsession" is perhaps the greatest barrier to significant social change in our country.

There is another side to that coin, of course, and that relates to the dramatic economic impact of people who are obsessed with property values.

I gather this is a commentary on my posting earlier this morning, or was at least prompted by it.

The day's probably going to come--if I live long enough--when I need every last dime of equity from my house to keep a roof over my head. And I'm talking about a small roof: probably a modest rented room. Sorry to break this to you, but some of us are not so affluent that we can afford to be unconcerned about what happens economically once we're unable to continue working due to age or physical infirmity. The fact remains that home equity is one of most Americans' largest areas of savings. Although my family's eggs are not all in that basket, it's still a significant amount.

Wait till you're my age and you may see this "obsession," as you put it, a bit differently.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Property values are just an indicator for all of the quality of life factors that are evaluated when choosing a place to live. If subsidized housing was put on my block and my property value dropped by 50% yet I was still able to keep my doors unlocked, there was still little to no car traffic after 9:00 PM on school nights, turnover was low enough that I was still able to know the name of almost everyone on the block, and the quiet, pastoral atmosphere was maintained-- I would have no problems at all with sharing the living space with people of any income level.

Inequality is everyone's problem, not just the people with the short end of the stick. I have no problem with our societal duty to provide opportunities for the economically disadvantaged. What I do have a problem with is the undemocratic and unpredictable way that the societal burden is distributed. The working class neighborhoods least able to handle the addition of a lot of people with marginal increase in tax revenues get stuck with public housing that inevitable leads to further deterioration. It is a clear example of picking winners and losers. On the other hand, it makes no economic sense to locate public housing in affluent areas, as the real estate required to house 10 families would cost the government 5 to 10 times the amount of a lower rent area, making it an inefficient use of resources.

[kjbrill]

Sarah... Never meant to imply that property values are not important. To me they are very important. But I have may have a slightly different perspective. At 72 and 69 we are just hoping to last in our home as long as we can.

Due to the wife's infirmatives I installed an elevator in the house 6 years ago. It is not really an elevator but a vertical wheelchair lift meant for commercial buildings. But since it is inside of a elevator enclosure it functions as one. Made kind of a mess of the house installing it, but my attitude is we like our home and anything which can keep us here is worth it. As mobility has decreased just recently purchased a used wheelchair minivan. This is the kind where a side ramp is used to enter and exit with a power wheelchair, and you actually ride in it.

Some of you may get the idea I am some sort of bleeding-heart liberal. I am not and have always been very conservative in my own lifestyle. I do believe in earning your own way and hope I have instilled that in my children. But our current public works programs do not work and need to be changed. I do not claim to have the answers. I just know that currently these people are being kicked around like a football, and we need some bold and innovative programs to break the cycle. Challenge our egghead institutions to come up with a workable program or cut off all of their funding. In this down economy we need answers not debate.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy

Property values are just an indicator for all of the quality of life factors that are evaluated when choosing a place to live. If subsidized housing was put on my block and my property value dropped by 50% yet I was still able to keep my doors unlocked, there was still little to no car traffic after 9:00 PM on school nights, turnover was low enough that I was still able to know the name of almost everyone on the block, and the quiet, pastoral atmosphere was maintained-- I would have no problems at all with sharing the living space with people of any income level....

I wouldn't have a problem with the simple diversity of income levels, either, if as in your example nothing else about the neighborhood changed. But if you have a $100K mortgage on your $200K house (a not at all unusual situation), and your property value (defined as what you could sell the house for in an arm's length sale) drops to $100K, then you do the math. Your equity is zero.

Where you and progmac obviously differ from me is that I don't feel like I'm in a position to just absorb that $100K loss and just move on. Heck, even if I wanted to go back to work full-time at something relatively lucrative, who's going to hire a woman with moderate, age-related health issues in her 60s, 70s or 80s in this employment market?