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Old 09-10-2011, 08:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Perry View Post
. . . I could not disagree more with about 90% of Wilson's commentary . . .
It's on then, isn't it.

Every time some water dunking Baptist, or a Communion sipping Episcopalian confronts the fact that what they do via ritual is not really in the Bible, they get all queezy and nauseous.

Look folks, if you are wedded to some snake charming or fainting in the front of the church, I'm the last person to care, but if you want some modern interpretation of the Bible, in a congenial atmosphere, a spiritual community to fall back on in time of need, or an opportunity to do spiritually based service work, Crossroads is the safest place to go. Seriously.
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati near
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
A mystery is why Crossroads seems to scare the beejesus out of non-Christians.
I might have a little insight here. My family is very catholic (my grandfather was an ex-seminarian) and the older (baby boomer) generation of aunts and uncles are, to put it mildly, not big fans of Crossroads. They were taught growing up that church is a solemn place for prayer and that any distraction is disrespectful. My cousin's girlfriend was recently given the cold shoulder by my aunts because she put her hand in my cousin's back pocket during church, a definite non-no. To them, the coffee, the music, the 'production' atmosphere, and a host of other seemingly minor things are offensive to those that are trying to communicate with God in a meditative way.

Non-Christians often feel similarly about Crossroads. My wife's former coworker at P&G, who is in her late 20s and Hindu, had complaints very similar to my aunts' after attending some sort of service there. Members of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches also seem to have sincere issues with the services at Crossroads. In general, I think many traditions associate religion with sacrifice, so they feel that Crossroads is 'selling out' to attract memberships by making the services entertaining and comfortable.

I have never been there so I can't comment on any possibly validity of their arguments, but in theory I don't have any personal issues with their mode of operation. However, I am not really a 'true believer' and I tend to view religious traditions as more of a cultural phenomena and a social construct than any true path as dictated by a creator, so I do not get indignant when someone has a religious preference different from my own.

I do get annoyed with the giant traffic jams on Madison and Ridge that happen every time church lets out, though.
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy View Post
I might have a little insight here. My family is very catholic (my grandfather was an ex-seminarian) and the older (baby boomer) generation of aunts and uncles are, to put it mildly, not big fans of Crossroads. They were taught growing up that church is a solemn place for prayer and that any distraction is disrespectful. My cousin's girlfriend was recently given the cold shoulder by my aunts because she put her hand in my cousin's back pocket during church, a definite non-no. To them, the coffee, the music, the 'production' atmosphere, and a host of other seemingly minor things are offensive to those that are trying to communicate with God in a meditative way.

Non-Christians often feel similarly about Crossroads. My wife's former coworker at P&G, who is in her late 20s and Hindu, had complaints very similar to my aunts' after attending some sort of service there. Members of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches also seem to have sincere issues with the services at Crossroads. In general, I think many traditions associate religion with sacrifice, so they feel that Crossroads is 'selling out' to attract memberships by making the services entertaining and comfortable.

I have never been there so I can't comment on any possibly validity of their arguments, but in theory I don't have any personal issues with their mode of operation. However, I am not really a 'true believer' and I tend to view religious traditions as more of a cultural phenomena and a social construct than any true path as dictated by a creator, so I do not get indignant when someone has a religious preference different from my own.

I do get annoyed with the giant traffic jams on Madison and Ridge that happen every time church lets out, though.

You have a very interesting perspective on this phenomenon. It hadn't occurred to me that the absence of sacrifice and solemnity was a possible engine for the fear and loathing many have in regards to Crossroads. And, the traffic, while annoying as all get out, is not a persistent enough irritation to generate the extreme feelings some have.

Of course, since my ux is an artist specializing in Catholic imagery and iconography, I have had a lot of exposure to all things Catholic and find today's Jesuit and Franciscan Catholic priests and brothers (with whom I am most familiar) to be highly tolerant people and while they may think Crossroads lacks seriousness, I doubt there is much animus from them. Older Catholics are probably still stinging from Vatican II.

Your perspective is helpful.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:05 AM
 
2,886 posts, read 3,950,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy View Post
I have never been there so I can't comment on any possibly validity of their arguments, but in theory I don't have any personal issues with their mode of operation. However, I am not really a 'true believer' and I tend to view religious traditions as more of a cultural phenomena and a social construct than any true path as dictated by a creator, so I do not get indignant when someone has a religious preference different from my own.
I do consider myself a "true believer" and I don't get indignant when someone has a religious preference different from my own, either. My attitude is that God is offering many ways to worship, in order for us to find the one most conducive for us as individuals.

I know some people--mostly members of mainline Protestant denominations--who have the attitude that people who attend megachurches are doing so simply as a spectator sport and to be entertained (and probably for the free coffee and wi-fi). Maybe that's true. But if even a tiny bit of the real message gets through, that's better than nothing. And it's not my place to look into anyone else's heart and mind and make assumptions about their motivations. Judge not that ye be not judged, and all that.

Last edited by Sarah Perry; 09-10-2011 at 10:32 AM.. Reason: omitted word
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati near
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Jesuits and Franciscans are both on the progressive side of Catholic theology. I attended a Franciscan gradeschool, a Jesuit high school, got married at a Franciscan church, and now teach at a Jesuit university. I doubt you will find many of either denomination that are critical of anyone's religious practices.

The diocesan churches are typically more conservative, although there are many exceptions.
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Oxford, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post

A mystery is why Crossroads seems to scare the beejesus out of non-Christians.
Interesting you would say that, because I've read there are actually atheists who attend Crossroads. I can't imagine why, unless it's just a huge social club for them.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by insightofitall View Post
Interesting you would say that, because I've read there are actually atheists who attend Crossroads. I can't imagine why, unless it's just a huge social club for them.

Oh, I am sure there are. But that is not at all inconsistent with what I said. You see, as a seeker church, Crossroads is very very user friendly. Once a person goes, it is an easy place to come back to. But what many who have not been to Crossroads visualize is a fundamentalist evangelical church like the Crystal Cathedral or proselytizing Moonie types at every turn. A seeker church is perfectly fine for you to come, enjoy and leave with no acceptance of their dogma. Tricky folks these Christians. That's why everyone wants to join.

Last edited by Wilson513; 09-10-2011 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:38 AM
 
1,130 posts, read 2,023,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post

A mystery is why Crossroads seems to scare the beejesus out of non-Christians.
I hate to get involved in this discussion, but...

This quote is exactly why I am uncomfortable with churches like Crossroads. I've been to Crossroads, I have friends who attend Crossroads, and I've been hearing this kind of stuff from people since Student Venture in high school and Campus Crusade in college.

Keep in mind, when they say "non-Christians", they aren't necessarily talking about Jews, Hindus and Moslems. They're talking about Baptists, Presbyterians, and Catholics. Last I checked, those were Christian faiths too, and the arrogance of identifying yourself as a true Christian as opposed to these other "sects' is an absolute turn off to me. I've been lectured about the "true-Christian" philosophy more than once, so I am quite familiar with the attitude.

The other thing that I find uncomfortable about churches like Crossroads is that it plays into this weakness in our society today that tells us that everything has to be entertaining. If it's not "fun", or not a stimulating mutli-media production, then we're not interested. Too me, it's emblematic of the media-induced dumbing down of our society. On the other hand, your average Catholic priest isn't going to win any contests for inspiring speeches, but it is what it is, I guess.

I also know many people attend Crossroads to use it as a social club, and, frankly, as a place to pick up chicks. What I've come to figure out about these open-architecture, free-form churches is that you can kind of have your cake and eat it, too...free from all the guilt Catholics and others have. I think this style of modern worship allows people to rationalize compatibility with modern morals.

All that said, different strokes for different folks. I think there are a lot of good people who do attend Crossroads, and I think the members do a lot of good works not only locally, but globally. Stil, they don't have a corner on those activities. So, the bottom line is, if the values put forth by Crossroads suit you, then join. It's just not my cup of tea.
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by t45209 View Post
I hate to get involved in this discussion, but...

This quote is exactly why I am uncomfortable with churches like Crossroads. I've been to Crossroads, I have friends who attend Crossroads, and I've been hearing this kind of stuff from people since Student Venture in high school and Campus Crusade in college.

Keep in mind, when they say "non-Christians", they aren't necessarily talking about Jews, Hindus and Moslems. They're talking about Baptists, Presbyterians, and Catholics. ..
Crossroads is absolutely not my cup of tea, either. However, I'm surprised to learn that their position on Baptists, Presbyterians and Catholics is that they're not Christian. Mormons, maybe, okay, but the denominations you mentioned? Are you sure?
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:44 AM
 
2,886 posts, read 3,950,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Perry View Post
Crossroads is absolutely not my cup of tea, either. However, I'm surprised to learn that their position on Baptists, Presbyterians and Catholics is that they're not Christian. Mormons, maybe, okay, but the denominations you mentioned? Are you sure?
Sorry for responding to my own post, but it occurred to me DUH I could see what Crossroads says.

"We believe that all those, anywhere, who acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord make up the one true church. The purpose of a local church is to organize Christians to reach unbelievers with the message of salvation, serve as a corporate body for worship of God, provide fellowship for Christians with each other, develop the gifts and talents of Christians for godly service, and practice baptism and communion..."

So, that looks pretty clear to me. Thanks, anyway.
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