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Old 10-14-2011, 06:31 PM
 
5,318 posts, read 6,624,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insightofitall View Post
Sorry, ram, I've never bought the logic behind that type of argument. You're comparing apples to oranges. A car is designed to be a valid means of transportation - whereas a gun, by virtue of its design, has a single specific purpose to inflict harm when used. There's simply no other use for which a gun is designed. Yes, a car CAN be used as a weapon, but that's not what it is designed to do. Just because there are more deaths caused by car accidents on any given day is not a valid reason to consider a gun to somehow be safer simply because statistics indicate that fewer people are killed by firearms in bars on that same day.

EDIT: I didn't see Cleveland_Collector's response until after I wrote this, so apparently we're on the same page.

Explain how an inanimate object kills people.
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:35 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,900,730 times
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I've had firearms training coutesy of the miltary. I wholeheartedly support our Second Amendment rights. I believe most CCW permit holders are responsible. And I don't believe that laws will stop anyone who wants to carry a weapon anywhere. A couple of things give me pause, however:

- I'm not sure, even if I had a CCW permit, I'd want to spend time in a bar where I thought it was necessary to have a firearm with me.

- While I'm all for CCW holders carrying weapons, I'm still concerned that not everyone fully understands the consequences of carrying. Do they FULLY understand "use of deadly force" doctrine? Have they considered how difficult it is to use a weapon in a crowded place? What if the bad guy is able to get the weapon away from you? Even law enforcement folks, who regularly train for such situations have problems...

Last edited by Crew Chief; 10-17-2011 at 10:42 AM.. Reason: Dyslexic fingers...
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,381,264 times
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Crew Chief... I respect your response and position. I just wish I had the confidence your have that CCW permit holders are responsible, particularly the "use of deadly force" doctrine. Unfortunately some CCW holders I am familiar with I consider just itching for a circumstance to use their weapon, like we are still in the Wild Wild West and they are the town vigilantes.

Like you, I do not want to frequent a bar, or any other establishment for that matter, where it is considered necessary to have a firearm. I remember a discussion from when I was younger about hunting, revolving around the best weapon for a younger person. The answer was simple, a 410 shotgun since it has such a limited range. But many parents bought a 22 rifle for their young hunter which can be deadly up to a mile, simply because they were cheaper. My confidence in people recognizing the significance of firearms is very limited.
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Oxford, Ohio
901 posts, read 1,953,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
Explain how an inanimate object kills people.
Explain to me the purpose of a gun in accordance with its design, compared to the purpose of a car in accordance with its design.
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:40 AM
 
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AMEN, KJBrill. My fondest hope is that the CCW holders who talk like Billy Bada** today will do the right thing when (or more likely; if) the time comes. Maybe I'm just lucky to know a lot of CCW holders with their heads screwed on straight...
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:44 AM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,446,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post
I've had firearms training coutesy of themiltary. I wholeheartedly support our Second Amendment rights. I believe most CCW permit holders are responsible. And I don't believe that laws will stop anyone who wants to acrry a weapon anywhere. A couple of things give me pause, however:

- I'm not sure, even if I had a ccw, I'd want to spend time in a bar where I thought it was necessary to have a firearm with me.
I certainly agree that I wouldn't want to go to a bar where CC was necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
Crew Chief... I respect your response and position. I just wish I had the confidence your have that CCW permit holders are responsible, particularly the "use of deadly force" doctrine. Unfortunately some CCW holders I am familiar with I consider just itching for a circumstance to use their weapon, like we are still in the Wild Wild West and they are the town vigilantes.

Like you, I do not want to frequent a bar, or any other establishment for that matter, where it is considered necessary to have a firearm. I remember a discussion from when I was younger about hunting, revolving around the best weapon for a younger person. The answer was simple, a 410 shotgun since it has such a limited range. But many parents bought a 22 rifle for their young hunter which can be deadly up to a mile, simply because they were cheaper. My confidence in people recognizing the significance of firearms is very limited.
I'm not itching to shoot someone, but I also don't want to be a victim.

A word of advice to CC persons exercising deadly force. Follow police training. Shoot to kill and keep shooting until you do. Once you pull the trigger the first time, you are committed. When he is dead, he is committed.
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Oxford, Ohio
901 posts, read 1,953,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post

- I'm not sure, even if I had a CCW permit, I'd want to spend time in a bar where I thought it was necessary to have a firearm with me.
A very astute point.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:09 AM
 
2,886 posts, read 3,957,501 times
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People get concealed carry permits for a lot of different reasons. I had one for a while when I lived in Kentucky. The training I got was minimal and the test I had to pass to get the permit was a joke. Maybe Ohio's law is more realistic. I hope so.

Anyway, there are some permit holders I wouldn't mind sitting down next to in a bar. Responsible, law-abiding people. There are others I wouldn't want to get within a mile of. Just getting the permit doesn't mean you're responsible or use good judgment or don't have some kind of problem with alcohol. And no matter what type they are, I don't want to get caught in their crossfire.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:42 PM
 
5,318 posts, read 6,624,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insightofitall View Post
Explain to me the purpose of a gun in accordance with its design, compared to the purpose of a car in accordance with its design.

Explain to me why there were more Americans killed today by cars than by guns. Explain to me why there are millions of guns circulating in America but there are not millions of shootings.
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,381,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
Explain to me why there were more Americans killed today by cars than by guns. Explain to me why there are millions of guns circulating in America but there are not millions of shootings.
To me that is a rather silly question. Cars are used for their intended purpose on a rather frequent schedule, daily in most cases. The majority of fatalities involving cars are due to operator error or maybe just plain negligence, akin to stupidity. We may call them accidents, but the fact is many could be avoided by using good judgement. How many observe traffic in construction zones above the posted limit? The old I don't deserve to be slowed down syndrome because I am special. But cars and other vehicles, such as trucks, serve the requirement to get us back and forth from our jobs, move all variety of goods, provide the means for recreation, purchase food and other commodities.

While there may be millions of guns in America, and if they were used, that is discharged frequently, it tends to attract attention. The fact is a car may be misused for its intended purpose, but a gun has only one purpose to begin with and that is to harm someone. Other than that it is a completely useless article.

Last edited by kjbrill; 10-17-2011 at 09:10 PM.. Reason: additional content
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