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Old 10-22-2011, 11:05 PM
 
405 posts, read 755,674 times
Reputation: 140

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post

By the way, how would you react if someone in a crowd had an illegally concealed weapon and started shooting?
The old "gun hero saves the day" meme.

Facts are facts: guns are much more likely to be used in homicide, suicide, or accidents than in saving the world form all those evil people by preventing or interrupting crime.

This has been shown repeatedly but the gun fanatics never admit it, address the facts, nor think it could ever apply to them. They are so responsible!

BTW I own guns but only rifles/shotguns. I have also seen many dead and dying (and just wounded) people who had been shot. If you have never seen the effects of a gunshot wound to the head close up you are lacking some critical real life information.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:18 AM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,504,396 times
Reputation: 8244
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
The old "gun hero saves the day" meme.

Facts are facts: guns are much more likely to be used in homicide, suicide, or accidents than in saving the world form all those evil people by preventing or interrupting crime.

This has been shown repeatedly but the gun fanatics never admit it, address the facts, nor think it could ever apply to them. They are so responsible!

BTW I own guns but only rifles/shotguns. I have also seen many dead and dying (and just wounded) people who had been shot. If you have never seen the effects of a gunshot wound to the head close up you are lacking some critical real life information.
I thought we were discussing CC? Your post addresses the possible consequences of the 1000 or so times as many non CC weapons in the hands of people who have not been vetted and trained . . . . like you.

BTW, do you think I am deterred from shooting an attacker threatening my life because he might have a particularly gruesome head wound? What planet would that occur on? As though the visual appearance of a wound would be a critical factor in whether I might choose to inflict the wound? For me, and other persons who are rational beings, it would be loss of the attackers life that would be in the balance. The appearance of his wound would not even enter my mind. I suppose it is your position that if he could be cleanly electrocuted it would all be an easier process.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Ohio
2,178 posts, read 7,826,883 times
Reputation: 3890
The guns in bars law states you can carry a concealed weapon in the bar but you are not allowed to consume alcohol. You can have a meal, drink Coke, etc, but no alcohol. If you want to drink alcohol you don't bring the gun inside. I am all for concealed carry, even open carry but not in bars. Alcohol often destroys common sense on normaly common sense people and its like water and oil. It don't mix. But I do agree that people without CCW permits will have guns in bars illegaly no matter what the laws are. So there is that side of reality to consider also. The bad guys will be armed wherever they are. I might have a tendency to carry a gun into a bar and buy a beer. But it wouldn't be shown for a fight. It would only be pulled to defend myself from someone using deadly force against me. And since I am not an instigator I don't see that happening.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,412,053 times
Reputation: 1920
Well, here is my two cents.

You Yahoo cowboys who believe your gun carrying is a detriment to crime, or even to your own safety, get real. In a real conflict by the time you got one shot off you would be hit by at least six.
Why do you want to put your own condition above that of our elected police, etc. to defend you? The only reason I can think of is you just completely distrust our public police from defending you. To me that is you distrust our society as a whole. If you do not trust our public defenders, then why are you still here?

I am totally forward in wanting all handguns to be banned in the US. Whatever the laws are, CC, I don't care ban them all. The argument is the outlaws will always have access to guns. That is true as long as we make a grey area between legal and non-legal possesion. I am for outlawing them all, and shutting down any handgun manufacture in the US who sells to anything but the military or police, and keepng close tabs on them. And stop any foreign handgun imports into the US, and do not purchase any guns from outside countries. If we can't make them we don't need them. A contract to provide handguns to the miliary and police forces of the US should be more than enouigh to spur bidding.

I am just hoping at some point in my lifetime I will get the chance to vote on striking the 2nd Amendment from our consitution. To me it has been much more maligned than Prohibition ever was.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:23 AM
 
405 posts, read 755,674 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robhu View Post
The guns in bars law states you can carry a concealed weapon in the bar but you are not allowed to consume alcohol. You can have a meal, drink Coke, etc, but no alcohol. If you want to drink alcohol you don't bring the gun inside. I am all for concealed carry, even open carry but not in bars. Alcohol often destroys common sense on normaly common sense people and its like water and oil. It don't mix. But I do agree that people without CCW permits will have guns in bars illegaly no matter what the laws are. So there is that side of reality to consider also. The bad guys will be armed wherever they are. I might have a tendency to carry a gun into a bar and buy a beer. But it wouldn't be shown for a fight. It would only be pulled to defend myself from someone using deadly force against me. And since I am not an instigator I don't see that happening.
I completely agree with this.
People are not the rational beings they once thought they were. They are ruled by impulses and emotions. Alcohol loosens the rational control of the emotions and impulses. I think most people know this!
Lots of crimes (including gun crimes) are "crimes of passion" done impulsively ( a fair number of suicides also). If people go in a rage or a deep depression, and are drunk on top, and they have a gun, they are probably more likely impulsively to grab the gun and use it.

If you have never been in a momentary rage, or a brief sudden depression, or have never been drunk, then you wouldn't understand that!
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:32 AM
 
405 posts, read 755,674 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
BTW, do you think I am deterred from shooting an attacker threatening my life because he might have a particularly gruesome head wound? What planet would that occur on? As though the visual appearance of a wound would be a critical factor in whether I might choose to inflict the wound? For me, and other persons who are rational beings, it would be loss of the attackers life that would be in the balance. The appearance of his wound would not even enter my mind.
Wilson it is true I am not so trained as you. But, I don't conceal carry. Also, I no longer have any ammo for my guns in the house.

You missed my other point so let me rephrase it:

Have you ever killed or shot someone with a gun, or have you ever seen someone dying in front of you from a gunshot would?

How people adjust how they think in response to events says something about them.

If you have killed someone or seen up close someone dying and it has no effect on you and how you think about guns, that says one thing. But if it causes you to rethink things it says something else.

Like I said, having seen way too many wounded dead and dying people with gruesome gunshot wounds, it made me re-think how I approach the whole gun issue. I am much more cautious about them and their effects are much more real. It changes how I view issues like guns in bars.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:40 AM
 
5,324 posts, read 6,647,894 times
Reputation: 2666
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolden View Post
The old "gun hero saves the day" meme.

Facts are facts: guns are much more likely to be used in homicide, suicide, or accidents than in saving the world form all those evil people by preventing or interrupting crime.

This has been shown repeatedly but the gun fanatics never admit it, address the facts, nor think it could ever apply to them. They are so responsible!

BTW I own guns but only rifles/shotguns. I have also seen many dead and dying (and just wounded) people who had been shot. If you have never seen the effects of a gunshot wound to the head close up you are lacking some critical real life information.

Then how do you explain the tens of millions of guns in circulation in the US today but there are not even tens of thousands of shootouts going on on a daily basis?
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:44 AM
 
5,324 posts, read 6,647,894 times
Reputation: 2666
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
Well, here is my two cents.

You Yahoo cowboys who believe your gun carrying is a detriment to crime, or even to your own safety, get real. In a real conflict by the time you got one shot off you would be hit by at least six.
Why do you want to put your own condition above that of our elected police, etc. to defend you? The only reason I can think of is you just completely distrust our public police from defending you. To me that is you distrust our society as a whole. If you do not trust our public defenders, then why are you still here?

I am totally forward in wanting all handguns to be banned in the US. Whatever the laws are, CC, I don't care ban them all. The argument is the outlaws will always have access to guns. That is true as long as we make a grey area between legal and non-legal possesion. I am for outlawing them all, and shutting down any handgun manufacture in the US who sells to anything but the military or police, and keepng close tabs on them. And stop any foreign handgun imports into the US, and do not purchase any guns from outside countries. If we can't make them we don't need them. A contract to provide handguns to the miliary and police forces of the US should be more than enouigh to spur bidding.

I am just hoping at some point in my lifetime I will get the chance to vote on striking the 2nd Amendment from our consitution. To me it has been much more maligned than Prohibition ever was.



Why don't we just scrap the Constitution?
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,412,053 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
Why don't we just scrap the Constitution?
I don't want to scrap the constitution, just one amendment to it. Just like Prhibition was scrapped once peiple woke up.
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:24 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,504,396 times
Reputation: 8244
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
Well, here is my two cents.

You Yahoo cowboys who believe your gun carrying is a detriment to crime, or even to your own safety, get real. In a real conflict by the time you got one shot off you would be hit by at least six.
Why do you want to put your own condition above that of our elected police, etc. to defend you? The only reason I can think of is you just completely distrust our public police from defending you. To me that is you distrust our society as a whole. If you do not trust our public defenders, then why are you still here?
This could be a quote from a new sitcom where Archie Bunker is from Norway and lives in Berkeley CA. And, your argument does not get any better by insulting those who want to exercise their Constitutional rights. If you don't seee any difference between the Bill of Rights and the Prohibition Amendment, you need to read Mark Levine's book Liberty and Tyranny.

Second, the idea that police protect people in jeopardy is so naive that I do not even know where to start. First, if your soon-to-be-killer let's you have time to make your one phone call to the police, which I doubt he will, and if you call the police and tell them that a man with a gun is in your house, or has chased you into an alley, let me assure you that the Mason Police Officer that shows up at your house is going to park his squad car across your driveway, get on the other side of the car and . . . wait for reinforcements. It will be 15 minutes later when everyone, including the Chief of police arrives. Eventually, they may enter your house and are as likely to shoot you as the intruder.

The police do a great job of following up tips from the perpetrator's estranged girlfriend, or reading the license number off of a security camera and looking up the address of the driver, but no, they don't prevent crimes, rescue citizens in criminal jeopardy, or defend the victims of violence. Any suggestion to the contrary is absurd.

As for your misplaced confidence in the markesmanship of perps, the record shows otherwise. Mostly, it is the criminals who are at a disadvantage. They hit bystanders, inanimate objects and sometimes themselves. Usually they have no training at all and often rely on inferior arms. Further, until they are shot, they don't really know if they are using their gun, brandishing it, or not needing it at all. So, I'd re-think that 6 to one advantage you claim for the perp.

Last edited by Wilson513; 10-23-2011 at 02:53 PM..
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