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Old 01-17-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,747,392 times
Reputation: 2058

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
I went to school and got my bachelor's in economics, and I understand cost-benefit and marginal utility. That's why I go after boondoggles such as the streetcar, the riverfront transit center, and every other failed attempt by Cincinnati to re-re-re-re-redevelop (insert historic district here).
Funny, because the hottest real estate markets are in the City and owe a lot to the re-re-re-re-redevelopment efforts that you dismiss.

Since we've been talking roads a lot lately, certainly suburban boom of the 60s to 90s created by the roads and other government programs encouraging greenfield development shows the market potential of government intervention.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,841,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
Funny, because the hottest real estate markets are in the City and owe a lot to the re-re-re-re-redevelopment efforts that you dismiss.
Says a lot about how much this guy really knows about Cincinnati and what's going on around here.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:11 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,772,657 times
Reputation: 2959
^
Ah, yes, a Desire named Streetcar.

From what I understand the argument behind the streetcar is not really for transit, but instead that the line would be an inducement to real estate developement along the line.

The streetcar proponents make an arguement that for some reason (and this is actually a good question for behavorial science or sociology or marketing) people are more likely to use a streetcar than bus. That there is higher ridership.

Which is one reason I dont support putting the streetcar operations and operating budget under the local transit authority.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:12 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
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Actually, the streetcar is a good example of copying (or borrowing an idea that works elsewhere, to put a positive spin)...in this case copying Portland.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,841,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
And if roads don't make economic sense, then I won't support those projects either as a waste of money.
Great point! Aren't you a student in Dayton? You aren't really supporting anything here in Cincinnati. You are 50 miles away, and want to come through and tell us how it needs to be done. Typical. Perhaps that's why there are so many inconsistencies in what you claim to know. From supposed failed urban re-re-re-redevelopment, to the real reason for the street car.

I love how the more you argue the deeper the hole you dig for yourself. Keep up the good work!
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
But throwing $150 million at a streetcar line that could just as easily be covered by a bus for a fraction of the cost is an act of lunacy.
This is one of those areas where traditional economics come up short. I completely agree with the premise that you present. It seems "crazy" that a streetcar would be successful while a bus would not be. Proponents argue that fixed rail and the permanency and 'feel' of a streetcar spur development and ridership in a way that a bus line would not. This seems like a situation where the proponents worked backwards from a conclusion (streetcar is good!) to the rationale. Similar to so-called creation "science" as a means for explaining the development of life.

To make matters more difficult, it is very difficult to find non-biased research on the matter.

And to many people's surprise, the very same discussion that we have on streetcars in Cincinnati is being rehashed all over the country, because streetcars are planned in very many cities. Even in Portland, which wants to dramatically expand its system, people say, the streetcar is a waste of money, use buses! So let's dismiss any notion that anti-streetcar folks are a "Cincinnati thing"

The prism through which you and others and I, for a while, viewed the streetcar, was as transportation. But strangely, transportation is not the point of this or any streetcar system. The whole point is to encourage development on the streetcar line. And where streetcars have been used in already developing areas, they seem to be successful. The annoying Portland but also Memphis and Seattle are showing that this actually DOES happen! But a streetcar in and of itself will not help. Tampa had a somewhat one-sided streetcar approach that has been something of a flop with declining ridership.

I think that in Cincinnati, there has been SO MUCH positive momentum, that the time is right for a streetcar. This isn't the hapless Detroit when it put in the people mover. Cincinnati is a growing economy and population in and around downtown is simply booming. Sections of OTR have seen property values increase by half or even double in the last three years; yes, i'm saying from 2010 to 2013. It certainly seems like the streetcar is the right tool for the right time, although i would say it is not a "critical lynchpin" to OTR and downtown development anymore than the new $50 million Austin Road Pike interchange south of Dayton is critical to the continuing southern sprawl of our fair city to the north. But I am without any doubt that it will help quicken the pace of development.

Last edited by progmac; 01-17-2013 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,841,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
I think that in Cincinnati, there has been SO MUCH positive momentum, that the time is right for a streetcar. This isn't the hapless Detroit when it put in the people mover. Cincinnati is a growing economy and population in and around downtown is simply booming. It certainly seems like the streetcar is the right tool for the right time, although i would say it is not a "critical lynchpin" to OTR and downtown development anymore than that stupid Austin Road exit south of Dayton is critical to the continuing southern sprawl of our fair city to the north. But I am without any doubt that it will help quicken the pace of development.
It would likely have an especially positive impact north of Liberty street, where development is happening but lacks the momentum of 3CDC. North of Liberty is happening though, just more from an "organic" approach - which is typically the norm in most other cities.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,747,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
It would likely have an especially positive impact north of Liberty street, where development is happening but lacks the momentum of 3CDC. North of Liberty is happening though, just more from an "organic" approach - which is typically the norm in most other cities.
Right, but we have to recognize that it isn't a silver bullet. It is the latest planning fad that has shown some promise. North of liberty is still the "ghetto" and people are scared to be there after dark. Positively engaged law enforcement and building out from the successful Findlay Market are just as important.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,841,599 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
Right, but we have to recognize that it isn't a silver bullet. It is the latest planning fad that has shown some promise. North of liberty is still the "ghetto" and people are scared to be there after dark. Positively engaged law enforcement and building out from the successful Findlay Market are just as important.
Exactly and I appreciate you bringing that up because I think it gets lost in all the debate. If it weren't for all the multi-faceted momentum, I would not be in favour of the streetcar. North of Liberty still has it's rough spots, but is slowly getting better.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
477 posts, read 531,294 times
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Quote:
It would likely have an especially positive impact north of Liberty street, where development is happening but lacks the momentum of 3CDC. North of Liberty is happening though, just more from an "organic" approach - which is typically the norm in most other cities.
There was some rumors of 3CDC focusing on heading from Wash Park towards Findlay Market as their next big step.
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