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Old 02-08-2013, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,847,008 times
Reputation: 924

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Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
when i see the new mega interchanges like austin boulevard or some of the new stuff up around fairfield, i feel like we've really jumped the shark in terms of designing automobile networks. the massive amount of concrete and asphalt and the expense associated with it is absolutely staggering. there is no way we have a sustainable mechanism of financing and maintaining this infrastructure.
The first few times I used Austin Interchange I found the lanes and markings extremely confusing.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati near
2,511 posts, read 3,375,107 times
Reputation: 5621
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post

Incidentally, the load in terms of PEOPLE shown above could be accommodated in two or three normal city busses.
...and 10x that load could be handled by a big riverboat, but neither would be able to get all of those people to their individual destinations. When everyone is going from the same destination to the same destination you can make a comparison, but otherwise it is apples and oranges.

For public transit to work (in my opinion) it must be able to seamlessly interface with personal transportation. I am hoping for technology to address this problem. For example, folding motorized bicycles that are small enough to carry onto a bus would allow people to quickly get to and from a bus stop and overcome some of the limitations associated with buses. Someone needs to track all of the city buses with GPS and release an app that lets people see where and when their route intersects with a bus in real time. Traffic lights should be controlled in a 'smart' manner that allows traffic to flow more predictably and eliminates disruptions due to statistical coincidences (four people in a row turning left with no arrow, etc). I am bullish on public transit in the future, but I think there is a lot of room for personal transit to grow first before public transit is able to deliver the QOL that cars give us today.

In a way, congestion is the driving force for innovation. Time is money, and time spent waiting for a bus or sitting in traffic is an inefficiency that can be minimized through efficiency and technical innovation. It sucks if you are one of the people that has to suffer through the interchange that is pictured above, but like all phases in the development of civilization, it is just a step in an unpredictable progression.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,030,852 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
Incidentally, the load in terms of PEOPLE shown above could be accommodated in two or three normal city busses.
Hi progmac--

While true, those 'three normal city buses' couldn't possibly go to all fifty-plus destinations that each of those drivers were going to.

A city bus would work there if everybody started and ended in the same place - but that simply isn't the case.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55 AM
 
800 posts, read 701,743 times
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>Really? Then why is transportation by car thriving in the US? Americans had good public transportation options in the 1st half of the 1900s but, instead, gradually chose the more convenient automobile.

The streetcar companies were private monopolies that entered into extremely complicated contracts with their respective cities. As part of these franchise agreements they paid huge fees to their host cities -- usually a 50% or greater tax on profits. When streetcar ridership started declining in the 1920s, cities often refused to relax this fee because it was a backbone of municipal finances. As a result, streetcar companies started defaulting on debt and rapidly scrapped lines so that only their most profitable remained after WWII.

But here's where it gets complicated: the middle class consisantly rode streetcars because they could afford them but couldn't afford a stagecoach or early automobiles. The poor tended to walk or ride streetcars less often because they had less money or don't have any job to travel to each day.

All classes had been situated in close proximity in US cities up until about 1910-1920. Then most of the people who could afford to ride streetcars moved to new neighborhoods where the streetcars did not already exist and could not be economically extended.

Very quickly US cities became, overwhelmingly, where the poor lived. And as I already said, the poor tended not to have jobs so they, once again, didn't have the money to commute via streetcar to jobs they didn't have.

The streetcars were in debt from extensions built to first-ring suburbs, so this 10-20% drop in revenue was a disaster. The companies might have been able to carry on if the cities relinquished their special franchise fees and somehow the debt from their extensions was forgiven. But that didn't happen because the failure of streetcars was way too valuable of a propaganda tool for the auto companies and politicians.

And quite obviously that narrative was so compelling that going on 100 years later fools are still espousing it as truth on the internet.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,335 posts, read 5,753,321 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
Hi progmac--

While true, those 'three normal city buses' couldn't possibly go to all fifty-plus destinations that each of those drivers were going to.

A city bus would work there if everybody started and ended in the same place - but that simply isn't the case.
I think it is an interesting visualization and not totally irrelevant. And thought provoking in terms of the level of infrastructure we require for something basic, getting people to work and back (the picture was taken at rush hour).

Of course the way we are spread out people are going all hither and yon. The newer suburbs are a lost cause for mass transit. I would never advocate for trying to make buses work out there.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,030,852 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by progmac View Post
Of course the way we are spread out people are going all hither and yon. The newer suburbs are a lost cause for mass transit. I would never advocate for trying to make buses work out there.
Hi progmac--

There's one thing I can think of that may improve ridership, and that's to add additional bus lines that form an effective beltway around the city. Rather than a hub and spoke system that necessitates going downtown in order to transfer outbound on another bus (to another suburb), have a "beltway route" that roughly coincides with I-275 and several peripheral transfer points.

(More coming in a bit.)
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:52 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,781,894 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Rather than a hub and spoke system that necessitates going downtown in order to transfer outbound on another bus (to another suburb), have a "beltway route" that roughly coincides with I-275 and several peripheral transfer points.

Dayton has this to some extent with outyling bus hubs and crosstown/loop service. Since I've become a heavy user of RTA i am starting to see the logic of how this system was designed.


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Quote:
The streetcar companies were private monopolies that entered into extremely complicated contracts with their respective cities. As part of these franchise agreements they paid huge fees to their host cities -- usually a 50% or greater tax on profits. When streetcar ridership started declining in the 1920s, cities often refused to relax this fee because it was a backbone of municipal finances. As a result, streetcar companies started defaulting on debt and rapidly scrapped lines so that only their most profitable remained after WWII.

But here's where it gets complicated: the middle class consisantly rode streetcars because they could afford them but couldn't afford a stagecoach or early automobiles. The poor tended to walk or ride streetcars less often because they had less money or don't have any job to travel to each day.

All classes had been situated in close proximity in US cities up until about 1910-1920. Then most of the people who could afford to ride streetcars moved to new neighborhoods where the streetcars did not already exist and could not be economically extended.

Very quickly US cities became, overwhelmingly, where the poor lived. And as I already said, the poor tended not to have jobs so they, once again, didn't have the money to commute via streetcar to jobs they didn't have.

The streetcars were in debt from extensions built to first-ring suburbs, so this 10-20% drop in revenue was a disaster. The companies might have been able to carry on if the cities relinquished their special franchise fees and somehow the debt from their extensions was forgiven. But that didn't happen because the failure of streetcars was way too valuable of a propaganda tool for the auto companies and politicians.

And quite obviously that narrative was so compelling that going on 100 years later fools are still espousing it as truth on the internet.
Good capsule history. Yet, once the technology was perfected and the highway and fuel infrastructure in place cars were the more flexible option.


Also, some of these franchise arragements had streetcar..and interurban... companies paying for street paving, which interestingly enough, made it easier for the competition to get rolling.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:00 PM
 
5,324 posts, read 6,657,074 times
Reputation: 2666
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
>
Every form of transportation is subsidized here in the US.


And Hamilton county taxpayers subsidize new football and baseball stadiums for millionaires.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:46 PM
 
1,295 posts, read 1,526,645 times
Reputation: 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
I made this same point in the street car thread. Street cars ran in every city and far and wide into the suburbs as well. But they were replaced by cars and busses because it is cheaper to run busses and also because people like being independent and want to own and drive a car.
Watch this and get educated on the disappearance of streetcars:


Taken for a Ride (Full Length Documentary) - YouTube
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:59 PM
 
2,492 posts, read 3,668,439 times
Reputation: 1385
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
And Hamilton county taxpayers subsidize new football and baseball stadiums for millionaires.
Yawn. That ship sailed long ago. Move on.

Would you have preferred the teams leave?

And taxpayers financed 51 percent of the cost to build Ford Field in your beloved Detroit. So you're funding millionaires there too.
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