U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-21-2013, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,392,180 times
Reputation: 1920

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
Brill has allowed rail to somehow be universally demonized in his point of view, and infinitely inferior to anything with rubber tires on asphalt.
If the subsidy was removed from rail transport, it would collapse. Yea, tell me how the whole highway system has been one great big government subsidy. Just ignore all of the companies and individuals which have paid their taxes for the privilege of traveling on the nation's highways. I have a hard time thinking of any companies which have dominated the hgihway system.

But when it comes to railroads the message is clear. A few railroads who would like to return to their glory of the 1800s. They were going downhill then and they are still going downhill. Paying public taxes for the privilege of riding on rail, might as well chuck it down a sewer. Talk about a left-wing, socialistic approach, this is it. Tax the majority for the privilege of the minority. Forget about the concept of everyone paying their fair share. But that is not the real motive. The objective is the majority will pay for the privilege of the minority. I do not feel this has been the result of the Interstate System. It has been perhaps one of the biggest achievements this country has ever had. Compare the railroads which just continued to shrink during the entire period of Interstate Development. why do you think this was true? Could it possibly be because they were always looking for a government handout?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,837,249 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
If the subsidy was removed from rail transport, it would collapse....
Blah, blah, blah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
There is virtually no time of the day, seven days a week, that I can cross the Brent Spence without seeing long distance highway trucks. But I can't remember when I last saw a train on the C&O railroad bridge.
You made a BS statement and were called on it by several posters. Now you want to rant away, virtually ignoring a very broad based set of verifiable facts pointed out by jmecklenborg. Answer what he said and quit trying to obfuscate the topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,837,249 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Jmecklenborg, next time you're on I-75 count the number of Canadian-based trucks as well as the number of MI & TN-based trucks that run North & South on I-75.

Yeah, it's usually 0. Zero. As in there are absolutely zero trucks that originated in Canada or are heading there on the bridge at any particular moment.

The entire province of Ontario has 12 million people, roughly the same as Ohio or Michigan. The idea that trucks are rolling, one after another, on some magical silk road from Toronto and Montreal to Mexico was just the highway lobby's excuse to build more highways in the US that are used overwhelmingly for local and regional use.

To put it more bluntly -- the New York City metro area alone has TWICE the population of Toronto and Montreal put together. Most of the trucks crossing the bridge every day are traveling anywhere from 50-250 miles, not over 1,000. Cincinnati is the southernmost edge of the heavily populated Great Lakes region. Kentucky and Tennessee combined don't have the population of Ohio. There is not a big city between Cincinnati and Florida (which is a high population state) except for Atlanta. And where do all those huge trains of "Triple Crown" trailers crossing the Southern Railroad bridge all day long originate? That's right, Atlanta -- and they're on their way to Michigan.

So people can keep getting fooled by the propaganda (the trucking industry loves to self-congratulated itself -- just listen to the Trucking Bozo hype it all up every night) or they can demand answers as to why all this lying is necessary to build a case for this bridge project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Here is footage of one of the Triple Crown trailer trains crossing the Cincinnati Southern Railroad bridge. Again, these trains originate in Atlanta and run express to Michigan:


Conrail (NS) Heritage 8098 returns to Cincinnati on the northbound Triple Crown - YouTube

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a dozen of these trains per day, I seem to see them every time I'm over in that area. Anyway, this footage absolutely destroys the folklore surrounding the Brent Spence Bridge.
Just to be clear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,020,820 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post
perhaps we should take away the railroad subsidies. But that's a whole 'nother thread...
Hi Crew Chief--

I would love to begin a thread like this. Especially since some of the people seem to rail endlessly here about "subsidies" for roads and the great evil conspiracy foisted on us by the auto companies... nevermind that fuel taxes pay for roads and the rail lines have been at the mercy of government subsidy for decades now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,837,249 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
If the subsidy was removed from rail transport, it would collapse.
And I'm calling BS on this too. Freight rail is not subsidized, and that's what we are talking about. Because brill claims there is no longer freight rail across the Ohio river.

Quote:
Furthermore, U.S. freight railroad companies are privately owned and operated, with no government subsidies.
Source:
HowStuffWorks "Freight Railroad Systems"

Oh - break it down for us hensleya1.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 03:57 PM
 
800 posts, read 698,939 times
Reputation: 552
Yeah I'm waiting to hear about what, exactly, what this "subsidy" freight railroads receive is. The era when state and governments helped build the railroads through incentives that would enable them to pay back their creditors (i.e. land grants that could be subdivided and sold off after the railroad became operational) was 150 years ago. Even now in most cases railroads must pay local property tax on land occupied by their tracks and related buildings.

In Europe (and more recently in China) the high speed passenger rail lines have been built in order to free up capacity for freight rail on existing tracks. In the US on nearly all routes Amtrak must yield to freight trains -- the complete opposite of how things used to be here and still are everywhere else in the world -- which leads to the abysmal intercity service in the Midwest and West. Amtrak on the east coast provides a quality of service similar to that in Europe, and some routes are profitable. The notoriously unprofitable routes operated by Amtrak like our own Cardinal are mandated in Amtrak's charter from back in 1972 or whenever. The Cardinal is especially ridiculous -- it passed through Cincinnati in the dead of night because it was fought for by Sen. Byrd of West Virginia, who demanded that it pass through his state during daylight hours. Nevermind that the entire state of West Virginia has fewer people than the Cincinnati metro. If that train stopped at Union Terminal during the daytime ridership would no doubt outrip what they pick up in West Virginia.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2013, 09:19 AM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,772,730 times
Reputation: 2368
I read an article on Cincinnati.com a couple of days ago and in it a report was made that people are concerned that the new bridge, if built and especially if it is a Toll bridge will have a significant impact on Covington. From the gist of it, people believe that it will greatly reduce traffic coming into Covington and will seriously harm the economy in Covington.

Has anyone seen any official studies showing the impact this proposed bridge would have on the economy of Covington? Since I just purchased a home in Covington, naturally I want to know how this is going to affect my investment in this community.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2013, 10:33 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 18,911,710 times
Reputation: 9895
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Jmecklenborg, next time you're on I-75 count the number of Canadian-based trucks as well as the number of MI & TN-based trucks that run North & South on I-75.

Yeah, it's usually 0. Zero. As in there are absolutely zero trucks that originated in Canada or are heading there on the bridge at any particular moment.

The entire province of Ontario has 12 million people, roughly the same as Ohio or Michigan. The idea that trucks are rolling, one after another, on some magical silk road from Toronto and Montreal to Mexico was just the highway lobby's excuse to build more highways in the US that are used overwhelmingly for local and regional use.

To put it more bluntly -- the New York City metro area alone has TWICE the population of Toronto and Montreal put together. Most of the trucks crossing the bridge every day are traveling anywhere from 50-250 miles, not over 1,000. Cincinnati is the southernmost edge of the heavily populated Great Lakes region. Kentucky and Tennessee combined don't have the population of Ohio. There is not a big city between Cincinnati and Florida (which is a high population state) except for Atlanta. And where do all those huge trains of "Triple Crown" trailers crossing the Southern Railroad bridge all day long originate? That's right, Atlanta -- and they're on their way to Michigan.

So people can keep getting fooled by the propaganda (the trucking industry loves to self-congratulated itself -- just listen to the Trucking Bozo hype it all up every night) or they can demand answers as to why all this lying is necessary to build a case for this bridge project.
I have NO idea when you travel I-75. But I'm guessing it's probably during the daytime rush hours. Or at least during daylight hours. The bulk of North America's truckload freight moves at night due to lighter volumes of traffic and tight delivery schedules. I am normally traveling I-75 SB between midnight and 6 a.m. I am literally SURROUNDED by trucks from Canada, MI and TN. Many are hauling automotive -related cargo. But there are plenty of trucks carrying everything else. Your post also shows that you know little about the trucking industry. In fact, much of the freight bound for the five NYC boroughs IS brought to warehouses and drop yards in NJ and other states. WHY? NYC was laid out LONG before 53' foot trailers were thought of. AND there are SO many truck height and weight restrictions that, while 53' trailers do come into the boroughs, it's more practical to break it down to smaller trucks in some cases. And manufacturing facilities and warehousing more and more is done in suburban in rural areas not far from major highways. Not large cities.

Does that mean I'm anti-railroad as a trucker? Heck no! Intermodal DOES have it's place in our transportation infrastructure. It's getting harder every day to find truckers that are willing to spend weeks and months away from home, living in a small box with a bunk and going from load to load. The rails aren't very good in time-sensitive transportation, but not all freight needs that kind of priority. And now matter how many rail lines you have, trucks still have to move it the last ____ miles.

Actually, my work schedule normally takes me across the B.S. during low-traffic hours, so backups arent as big a deal as it is for the commuters in cars. So I don't have that big of a dog in the fight, personally. And I wouldn't be excited about the potential for truck detours, lane restrictions and backups during a B.S. renovation/relocation, anyway. But we've already invested a LOT in road infrastructure. And we Americans overwhelmingly WILL NOT ride mass transit, so what's the point???

FWIW, Steve Sommers and his faithful callers on WLW's overnight trucking show aren't necessarily the best representatives of the trucking industry...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2013, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,392,180 times
Reputation: 1920
Crew Chief.. I believe you express yourself very well as a trucker and hope you continue.

Anyone who says trucking is not the backbone of commerce in this country is just not paying attention. As far as tonnage, I am having trouble finding just what the railroads currently handle. If you have a verifiable site, please indicate it, particularly breakdowns through individual states.

But also, the Ohio River probably carries more tonnage per year than all the railroads passing through Cincinnati. So should we close the lock operations or not maintain them?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2013, 11:18 AM
 
800 posts, read 698,939 times
Reputation: 552
>Has anyone seen any official studies showing the impact this proposed bridge would have on the economy of Covington?

No. I think the main worry is that the toll will harm the value of the long-planned redevelopment of Covington's western riverfront, that whole "fast food" area between the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge and the Brent Spence. There are also long-term hopes to redevelop the IRS site as something higher density. I have heard that much of that building is dedicated to the storage of records, and all of that is electronic now so they don't need so much space.

Personally I would love to see a subway tunnel built between DT Cincinnati and DT Covington, although many speculate that Cincinnati big wigs will never let this happen because it will make Covington a much more viable competitor to land corporate tenants. Much of the real estate game is about using government to limit the options of your competitors. Covington is already a bit of a competitor but a subway tunnel would go a long way toward equalizing Covington's accessibility. It would also reduce the need for parking garages, lowering building costs. Although it should be mentioned that Covington's earnings tax is by far the highest in the region, at 2.5%. Cincinnati's is 2.1% and .3% of that is dedicated to Metro. So relatively small Covington's earnings tax is in effect .6% higher than Cincinnati's, yet the media never, ever reports it.

>I am literally SURROUNDED by trucks from Canada, MI and TN. Many are hauling automotive -related cargo

I have never seen this. When I take a bike ride into Kentucky and stop for a train at the tracks in Latonia, it is often a mile-long train of new cars being shipped in enclosed autoracks. I've also seen entire trains of car and truck chasis rolling by. And trains of military humvees and the occasional tank.

>Your post also shows that you know little about the trucking industry

Actually I work for a distribution place. We have 13 straight trucks and 2 semis. We send trucks every day to Lousville, Indy, Columbus, etc.

>NYC

I'm aware that there isn't much warehousing in New York City's city limits. My point was that NYC is a bigger market, by far, than both of Canada's big cities combined. In fact combine NYC, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and you have a population as large and perhaps a larger economy than all of Canada put together.

>And we Americans overwhelmingly WILL NOT

Yes they will, if high quality service is available. Nobody would drive on the expressways if there weren't any expressways. Saying Americans won't ride streetcars, commuter rail, subways, and intercity trains when we more or less don't have those things in the entire middle of the country is the same thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top