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Old 03-06-2013, 08:47 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,784,740 times
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A lot of interesting trends in this article - the most interesting one being that 30% of the developments listed are not even in the Cincinnati area! The three are all in Springboro.

Even more interesting is the fact that these three Springboro developments pale in comparison to the rapid growth rate of other suburban developments in the Dayton area. Monroe Crossings, the #1 development on the list in the Cincy area for the year, only makes the #4 spot on the Dayton list for permits issued as of May 2012.

I guess the big question is why? This trend is bizarre, and not one I think I particularly like for either city. Dayton is far smaller than Cincy, and its urban core needs redevelopment, so why all the suburban development?

Is Cincinnati filled with more smaller suburban developments, is the city better at redeveloping its core and re-adapting buildings, or is Cincy growing at a slower rate than Dayton?

Here are Greater Cincinnati?s fastest growing residential developments: SLIDESHOW - Business Courier
Huber Heights subdivision growing quickly | www.daytondailynews.com
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Beavercreek, OH
2,194 posts, read 3,014,610 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
I guess the big question is why? This trend is bizarre, and not one I think I particularly like for either city. Dayton is far smaller than Cincy, and its urban core needs redevelopment, so why all the suburban development?

Is Cincinnati filled with more smaller suburban developments, is the city better at redeveloping its core and re-adapting buildings, or is Cincy growing at a slower rate than Dayton?
Hi OHKID--

Cincinnati's metro area is growing slightly slower than the national average, about 8% per decade, while Dayton's been breaking even. In both cases, you're seeing a continuing migration from the city out to the suburbs.

I could list many, many reasons - better schools, lower density, lower taxes, lower housing prices, less traffic and noise, less crime, less corrupt City government, etc.

Also, increasingly jobs are located in the suburbs. Union Centre in West Chester's built up nicely, GE Aviation moved hundreds of jobs from Evendale further north. There's all the warehouses - Amazon, Innotrac, etc. in the Hebron area. And on and on.

So in many cases, the commute can sometimes be even shorter if you live in a nearby suburb.

What's interesting about that list is how many of those are on the NKY side of the river - Boone County, Florence, and Independence. I knew those areas were growing rapidly (and the Florence Mall area is quite hopping), but I didn't expect them to make the top of the lists.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:48 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 10,211,776 times
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I'm glad that Monore Crossings is finally picking up again. We looked there 5 years ago, its a massive development (or will be when finally built out), but at that time building was clearly stalling. I felt bad for the people who'd already purchased there and had all the empty lots around.

As far as the developments in Springboro, I'm not surprised they're doing well (I only saw 2 listed in Springboro, maybe I'm missing something)... the whole "Dayton South" thing is a branding exercise (from my perspective), trying to get a new concentration of wealth yuppiedom from Centerville South. Seems to be working somewhat.

Springboro is definitely on the "Dayton" side of the dayton/cinci corridor, but given its proximity to the highway you could still easily commute either way. I work in WestChester and we have several people living in Sprinboro (also Dayton proper/BeaverCreek, Fairborn, Belbrook) working here.

As far as the appeal of the suburbs.. well, I guess what confuses me is I (currently a suburbanite) understand the appeal of the downtown/city lifestyle for the people that choose it. Why can't you understand that the suburban lifestyle is appealing to some people as well?

For the reasons that suburbs have always been appealing: Cheaper land, bigger house, more amenities (potentially), bigger lots, perceived safety, etc... etc.

And if you work in the suburbs (which more and more people do) - why wouldn't they choose to also live in suburbs?

I have nothing against an urban lifestyle (in fact next time around we might choose it) but this idea that its so mystifying as to why people might choose something else gets old.

Big world. Lots of choices. Enough for everyone to find something to make themselves happy.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:16 AM
 
1,130 posts, read 2,024,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
Hi OHKID--



I could list many, many reasons - better schools, lower density, lower taxes, lower housing prices, less traffic and noise, less crime, less corrupt City government, etc.

.
This is evidence that perception becomes reality. You make a lot of generalizations here, many of which can be debunked with facts. But, people tend to believe what they want.

For example, less corrupt city government. I may not like the way the City of Cincinnati functions, but I can't remember the last time a City Council person went to jail, and yet the news is filled with corruption, embezzlement charges, sex allegations, and no confidence votes in petty municipalities and townships all around the region.

Less traffic, is another example. Living in the city is a breeze compared to the gridlock that occurs around Fields Ertel and Mason Montgomery, or Rt. 32 or 125, or the Tri-County area and Rt. 4 in Fairfield. I wouldn't trade my 12 minute commute for that nightmare for anything.

Housing prices, well, you can find just about any price level in the city. What is more rare outside the city is finding houses of quality construction. It depends on what you are looking for.

And schools, arguments can be made on both sides of that. In the city, you have the opportunity to go to Walnut Hills, recognized as one of the best in the nation, but on the other hand you could be stuck in a situation like Little Miami Schools in Warren County.

The point is, people are lemmings and driven by ignorant fear, and trends perpetuate myths. Use your head, people.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,829,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
In both cases, you're seeing a continuing migration from the city out to the suburbs.
You totally ignore recent trends of people moving back into cities all across the nation. While, it's true this hasn't happened in Dayton yet, it's very well documented in Cincinnati. You should check your assumptions before posting them.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,367,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
You totally ignore recent trends of people moving back into cities all across the nation. While, it's true this hasn't happened in Dayton yet, it's very well documented in Cincinnati. You should check your assumptions before posting them.
You are talking about the downtown and OTR where all of the renewal is taking place. What about the rest of the City? The western neighborhoods need to still stop the hemmoraging.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,829,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
You are talking about the downtown and OTR where all of the renewal is taking place. What about the rest of the City? The western neighborhoods need to still stop the hemmoraging.
Do show the stats. How do you know what neighborhoods are declining?

No matter what, even if people were flooding into whatever neighborhoods are declining, you would just move the goal posts again and complain about something else.

Cincinnati is progressing and getting better by the day. That really galls you, now doesn't it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:05 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 10,211,776 times
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I have to say that I don't think I've ever seen a post where anyone wishes that Cincy would fail.

Honestly, I've been a bit taken aback by the enmity that has developed between certain personalities on the forum. One of the reasons that while I live in the Cincy metro area, I contribute so infrequently.

As far as I know, everyone that contributes on this forum wants the WHOLE REGION to do well. If the city outright tanks, then that's not very good for the region - even if I live in the surburbs and work in another suburb -- the ripple effect would probably be very destructive to my way of life.

Beyond my personal wants/needs - I have no desire to see any area fail, having spent my life just outside of the Detroit area (within a few miles), I know what a city being really disfunctional looks like.

One of the major problems of Detroit that most people notice is a sense on the part of its citizens that "The suburbanites are out to get us!" Which means that oftentimes seemingly commonsense procedures are not put in place because of some weird paranoia that "it would make those suburbanites happy!". Now, a lot of this is racially based in Detroit vs. Michigan as a whole, but still there is very much a "US" vs "THEM" philosophy that has done the city really very little good.

So when the city-booster posters here on occasion seem to have a similar level of paranoia, well, it makes me nervous. Because an "us" vs. "them" philosophy is not how you grow a region. And Cincinnati is part of a larger region, it is not a somehow magically isolated land within the city limits.

Cincy is a nice mid-sized city. It needs some work. They are working on it. Wheter it ultimately turns out to be more like Portland (used as a sustainable urban oasis model) or a Detroit (obviously the other extreme) is yet to be determined.

In the meantime just because someone isn't "YAY CINCY IS THE BEST!!!" doesn't mean they are secretly waiting for the city to fail.

Or at least I assume that. Maybe I'm the only one who is moderately neutral and everyone else really is secretly plotting.. *sigh*
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:13 AM
 
1,295 posts, read 1,520,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
Do show the stats. How do you know what neighborhoods are declining?

No matter what, even if people were flooding into whatever neighborhoods are declining, you would just move the goal posts again and complain about something else.

Cincinnati is progressing and getting better by the day. That really galls you, now doesn't it.
I think he's right. But you're right, if it came out that he was wrong, he would start talking about Hamilton County losing people, or find some other negative highlight.

There has been a lot of damage done to the city, and it has to be rebuilt methodically. That rebuilding is mostly happening from the inside out, in the same manner the city was built the first time. Fortunately, there are plenty of stable neighborhoods outside the city center, so rapid and dense development should turn the tide fairly easily. In the past few years, neighborhoods have flipped from losing residents to gaining them. That's a major step in stopping losing population. I think if Walnut Hills, the West End, or Camp Washington start getting spin-off development on a significant scale, we can safely say the tide has turned.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,007 posts, read 4,829,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natininja View Post
There has been a lot of damage done to the city, and it has to be rebuilt methodically. That rebuilding is mostly happening from the inside out, in the same manner the city was built the first time.
EXACTLY!!!!

You don't stabilize a declining city by starting in the peripheral neighborhoods. You start downtown, in the urban core, and work from there. Already, there is a 4% vacancy rate in OTR. This in turn is causing people who want to live downtown and can't find housing are choosing to live uptown.
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