Dohoney: Streetcar Has $17.4 Million Shortfall, "Needs More Funding"" (Cleveland: 2014, purchase)

[natininja]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

the cost of rail system is very high world wide, our rail projects are underfunded, the estimates are all way off. most countries are going to bus lines bek it is so much less and can be subcontracted and can be changed easily. the cost in japan of taking a charter bus instead of bullet train is 1/3 the cost.

Can you at least try to explain why anyone should think the "trackless trolley" alternative would replicate the economic development benefits of fixed-rail transit? You're rehashing an argument that's been around for 6 years of project development without even acknowledging the well-documented response to the concern.

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by natininja

He said trolling, not personal attacks. Saying a bunch of outrageous things which can only be meant to evoke an emotional reaction, all while refusing to engage in factual discussion, certainly has the appearance of trolling.

Hi natininja-

All right, I'll repost the facts here for your benefit (and for everyone else):

1) Cincinnati's streetcar will cost at least $17.1 million more than originally anticipated, and Cincinnati currently has no credible way to pay for it. And I would not be surprised if the cost rises still further.

2) Cincinnati unwisely committed to buying millions of dollars worth of streetcars without having the rest of the project in place, and is now stuck with the bill.

3) Cincinnati's finances, especially due to pension obligations, are worsening, and no sale of assets like the Blue Ash airport or the parking lease will fix an ongoing structural deficit issue - they just kick the can down the road another year at a time. Assuming yet another cost - the operating of the streetcar - will only serve to worsen the budget.

If those facts evoke a wildly emotional reaction from another poster, then that's completely beyond my ability to control.

I believe that the best solution for the city is (1) to cancel the streetcar immediately; (2) get an exemption from the state to one-time transfer the funds over to the general fund in order to keep police on the job; and if failing at that (3) put the capital funds toward some other project. And so what if Cincinnati loses the federal funds? Cincinnati doesn't have enough money on its end to take the deal.

There's nothing I've said that would constitute trolling.

[unusualfire]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi natininja-

All right, I'll repost the facts here for your benefit (and for everyone else):

1) Cincinnati's streetcar will cost at least $17.1 million more than originally anticipated, and Cincinnati currently has no credible way to pay for it. And I would not be surprised if the cost rises still further.

2) Cincinnati unwisely committed to buying millions of dollars worth of streetcars without having the rest of the project in place, and is now stuck with the bill.

3) Cincinnati's finances, especially due to pension obligations, are worsening, and no sale of assets like the Blue Ash airport or the parking lease will fix an ongoing structural deficit issue - they just kick the can down the road another year at a time. Assuming yet another cost - the operating of the streetcar - will only serve to worsen the budget.

If those facts evoke a wildly emotional reaction from another poster, then that's completely beyond my ability to control.

I believe that the best solution for the city is (1) to cancel the streetcar immediately; (2) get an exemption from the state to one-time transfer the funds over to the general fund in order to keep police on the job; and if failing at that (3) put the capital funds toward some other project. And so what if Cincinnati loses the federal funds? Cincinnati doesn't have enough money on its end to take the deal.

There's nothing I've said that would constitute trolling.

No what was originally anticipated was the 56 million the the governor pulled from the #1 rated project in Ohio.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

No what was originally anticipated was the 56 million the the governor pulled from the #1 rated project in Ohio.

If I had to take a guess, hens is trying to sway public opinion and is a volunteer, paid or otherwise. It's pretty common these days for candidates/organizations to have teams hit various forums and comment sections posting (wrong in this case) information that slants towards a certain political figures talking points. In this case, COAST and Cranley.

One of the tactics utilized with this method is to maintain the last word, and try and bury opposing points of view.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

If I had to take a guess, hens is trying to sway public opinion and is a volunteer, paid or otherwise. It's pretty common these days for candidates/organizations to have teams hit various forums and comment sections posting (wrong in this case) information that slants towards a certain political figures talking points. In this case, COAST and Cranley.

One of the tactics utilized with this method is to maintain the last word, and try and bury opposing points of view.

And this ^

There's no doubt one of TOAST's desperate tactics is to take to Internet message boards, news comment sections such as at the Enquirer and WCPO, call-in radio shows with aliases galore, etc. Unfortunately for them, few seem to be paying attention, especially those residents of Cincinnati who they need to capture. They can sing to the suburban Tea Party choir all they want but it won't make a bit of difference.

Their ridiculous arguments have long since become cliche. The only voices we ever hear railing against the streetcar are Smitherman, Luken, Finney and the clown show lineup at WLW, and you can be assured that their effectiveness has long since worn off. I'm a heavy follower of streetcar talk and like to hear what the haters say just to know their talking points, but even I have to turn the station when one of them comes on. They're just too boring to listen to anymore.

[Dayton Sux]

If I had to take a guess, hens is trying to sway public opinion and is a volunteer, paid or otherwise. It's pretty common these days for candidates/organizations to have teams hit various forums and comment sections posting (wrong in this case) information that slants towards a certain political figures talking points. In this case, COAST and Cranley.

...he's just another Dayton conservative. One of the reason Dayton is a sucky as it is.

[natininja]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi natininja-

All right, I'll repost the facts here for your benefit (and for everyone else):

1) Cincinnati's streetcar will cost at least $17.1 million more than originally anticipated, and Cincinnati currently has no credible way to pay for it. And I would not be surprised if the cost rises still further.

2) Cincinnati unwisely committed to buying millions of dollars worth of streetcars without having the rest of the project in place, and is now stuck with the bill.

3) Cincinnati's finances, especially due to pension obligations, are worsening, and no sale of assets like the Blue Ash airport or the parking lease will fix an ongoing structural deficit issue - they just kick the can down the road another year at a time. Assuming yet another cost - the operating of the streetcar - will only serve to worsen the budget.

If those facts evoke a wildly emotional reaction from another poster, then that's completely beyond my ability to control.

I believe that the best solution for the city is (1) to cancel the streetcar immediately; (2) get an exemption from the state to one-time transfer the funds over to the general fund in order to keep police on the job; and if failing at that (3) put the capital funds toward some other project. And so what if Cincinnati loses the federal funds? Cincinnati doesn't have enough money on its end to take the deal.

There's nothing I've said that would constitute trolling.

All of those points were addressed above, with no response by you except for your exchange with jmeck regarding #2. That's what I mean by refusal to discuss facts: you throw things out, then when they are responded to, rather than engage the response you just repeat what you said before.

Gloating about cost-overruns is trolling. Starting threads in order to do that is an even more egregious instance. Repeating (and repeating and repeating again) troll comments from the Enquirer's peanut gallery is trolling.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by Dayton Sux

...he's just another Dayton conservative. One of the reason Dayton is a sucky as it is.

Truly, true.

[Bhiggins]

Did any serious problems with budgeting the streetcar project happen in other cities like Portland?

[Dayton Sux]

^
This is a good question, sort of a lessons-learned.

....and one wonders if there is any contingency built into the costing for the Cincy project. And, it would have been better if the project was bid during a recession since you'd have a better bidding climate.

The concern with the streetcar really should be the operating costs (vs this capital expense) and if the city can cover that, since you won't be getting well via the farebox. No public transit system in the US or Europe supports operations 100% from the farebox, so this operating cost needs to be in an annual budget somewhere.