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Old 12-14-2013, 11:11 AM
 
Location: livin' the good life on America's favorite island
2,221 posts, read 4,369,745 times
Reputation: 1390

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
It is nice to hear Cincinnati is advancing in the state. But when I look at actual numbers, the gains over a decade are small. Better gains than loses, but they need to be larger.

Also not happy to see Cleveland had some reversals over the same decade. I never considered Cincinnati and Cleveland needed to be in competition with each other.

In my early working career, which was in machine tools, two companies stood out in my mind. The first of course was Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (The Mill) in Oakley, at one time the world's largest. The second was the Warner & Swasey Co. in Cleveland, Ohio. Everyone else ran in their shadow. I worked for the smaller R. K. LeBlond Machine Tool Co. in Norwood, but we did OK for quite a while.

For many years The Mill did not build a lathe which was LeBlond's entire product line. Suddenly The Mill got greedy and introduced a lathe product. LeBlond jumped right on it and in short order introduced the Regal Milling Machine. Regal was the trade name for LeBlond's best selling line of lathes and had an industry wide reputation for quality/value. The two company's top management got together, easy since they both lived in Indian Hill, and quickly The Mill's lathe and LeBlond's milling machine both disappeared. Sure it was collusion, but we preferred to call it a gentlemen's agreement.

One of Warner & Swasey's most successful machine type was called a turret lathe. They sold a ton of these. After the introduction of automated electronically controlled machines, or Numerical Control, LeBlond designed a machine they called a chucker. This was a short bed machine with no tailstock, but a tool turret on the cross slide, intended to machine parts just held in a chuck, usually an automated chuck. The machine was introduced at the IMTS trade show in Chicago. Warner & Swasey took one look and exclaimed Uh Oh we have a new competitor. In short order the other lathe manufacturers such as Jones & Lamson of New England, American Tool and Lodge & Shipley of Cincinnati, and Monarch in Sidney Ohio had their own versions on the market.

It just troubles me to realize that all of the companies I have mentioned above are no longer in business. What once was a large industry, and BTW had to pay well for skilled and experienced employees, is now defunct.

The replacement for LeBlond, a Japanese company named Makino, operates a good sized US sales and service organization based in Mason, Ohio. But they manufacture nothing there. This is where I retired from. Due to the complexity and sophistication of the current product, the business requires a reasonable number of skilled and experienced employees to support the US customers, but far less than the 1400 who worked at LeBlond in Norwood when I first started.
Definitely some 'blasts of the past'...when I was a young buck peddling my wares in the 80s many of these companies were still around. Some of those icon companies were in Cleveland proper which had to be helpful to tax base. With many of these companies gone I wonder if this was a major factor to the downfall of the city in 90s. Seems like many of the companies have moved to the suburbs. I also remember Cleveland Twist as being a big company which I suspect has no presence in the area or is defunct. Is Cinci Milacron still in business?
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 16,709,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZnGuy View Post
Definitely some 'blasts of the past'...when I was a young buck peddling my wares in the 80s many of these companies were still around. Some of those icon companies were in Cleveland proper which had to be helpful to tax base. With many of these companies gone I wonder if this was a major factor to the downfall of the city in 90s. Seems like many of the companies have moved to the suburbs. I also remember Cleveland Twist as being a big company which I suspect has no presence in the area or is defunct. Is Cinci Milacron still in business?
Cinti Milacron, the outgrowth of Cincinnati Milling Machine is still a corporate entity but a shell of its former self. They are completely out of the machine tool business. Milacron still has a plastic injection mold machine manufacturing business located in Batavia, but it is one of the lesser rans in that industry. They also held onto the Cimcool division which is operated as a separate subsidiary. They sold what was left of the machine tool business to a privately owned holding company in NYC which renamed it Cincinnati Machine and moved it to Hebron KY. That company has recently gone through a reorganization and to my knowledge the machine tool portion was sold to a French owned company, but I don't know what name it is operating under.

Last edited by kjbrill; 12-14-2013 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,995,912 times
Reputation: 1929
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
...Also not happy to see Cleveland had some reversals over the same decade. I never considered Cincinnati and Cleveland needed to be in competition with each other.

In my early working career, which was in machine tools, two companies stood out in my mind. The first of course was Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (The Mill) in Oakley, at one time the world's largest. The second was the Warner & Swasey Co. in Cleveland, Ohio. Everyone else ran in their shadow. I worked for the smaller R. K. LeBlond Machine Tool Co. in Norwood, but we did OK for quite a while....
The article stressed Cleveland's devastating losses in both its steel and auto industries, but downplayed Cincinnati's similar losses in its machine-tool and auto industries and failed to mention the horrible losses of steel/auto industries in nearby Hamilton and Middletown.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, kjbrill, but for a long time wasn't "The Mill" not only the world's largest tool-maker, but Cincinnati, itself, the "machine-tool capital of the world"? And, during that same time period, wasn't the Hamilton/Middletown industrial corridor often referred to as "Ohio's Ruhr"? (not to minimize the extent of steel at Youngstown) At night, decades ago, while driving up I-75 one could witness the glow of steel making to the west. Not so much any more. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that both Cleveland and Cincinnati suffered huge reversals in manufacturing. Thousands of good-paying jobs gone in each metro. Today, we are two cities that still grieve for what we lost.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:32 PM
 
319 posts, read 393,797 times
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This once again shows why MSA boundaries are useless in many cases. Cleveland and Akron have overlapping suburbs such as Twinsburg, Macedonia, Hudson, Aurora, Northfield and many others, but are in separate MSA's. There are many people who live in Cleveland and work in Akron and vice-versa. The Summit county line is less than 10 miles from downtown Cleveland at its' shortest distance (as the crow flies). So the reality is that Cleveland, Akron and the surrounding communities are part of the same economy that is the largest in the state. And it will be a long time before Cleveland is surpassed by either Cincinnati or Columbus.
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,995,912 times
Reputation: 1929
Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiac51 View Post
...So the reality is that Cleveland, Akron and the surrounding communities are part of the same economy that is the largest in the state. And it will be a long time before Cleveland is surpassed by either Cincinnati or Columbus.
No argument here, pontiac51. Without doubt, the northeastern connection of cities centered on Cleveland is the largest in Ohio. (and it's not unreasonable to think that Pittsburgh might one day be included) But numerous forum-members still deny the reality of both NEO and CIN-DAY. Do you really wish to reopen all this?

Last edited by motorman; 12-14-2013 at 03:45 PM..
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 16,709,519 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman View Post
The article stressed Cleveland's devastating losses in both its steel and auto industries, but downplayed Cincinnati's similar losses in its machine-tool and auto industries and failed to mention the horrible losses of steel/auto industries in nearby Hamilton and Middletown.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, kjbrill, but for a long time wasn't "The Mill" not only the world's largest tool-maker, but Cincinnati, itself, the "machine-tool capital of the world"? And, during that same time period, wasn't the Hamilton/Middletown industrial corridor often referred to as "Ohio's Ruhr"? (not to minimize the extent of steel at Youngstown) At night, decades ago, while driving up I-75 one could witness the glow of steel making to the west. Not so much any more. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that both Cleveland and Cincinnati suffered huge reversals in manufacturing. Thousands of good-paying jobs gone in each metro. Today, we are two cities that still grieve for what we lost.
You are definitely right, Cincinnati was the machine tool capital of the world. It has been a long time, but let's see how many names I can remember.

We start of course with Cincinnati Milling Machine (The Mill) in Oakley. Behind them in no particular order was R.K.LeBlond in Norwood (lathes), G.A.Gray in Norwood (planners), American Tool Works downtown (lathes), Lodge & Shipley in the valley (lathes), Cincinnati Shaper (shapers), Cincinnati Incorporated over near Harrison (press brakes, shears & punch presses), Carlton Machine Tool (drills), Fosdick Machine Tool(radial drills & *** borers), Avey Drilling Machine in Covington (drills), Cincinnati Gilbert (variety, best known for precision horiz. boring mills). I am running out of steam and know I missed some. The only one I know still surviving is Cincinnati Incorporated.

As a tribute to the quality of the products these companies produced there is still and entity called LeBlond Ltd. out in Amelia which exists on providing parts and service for LeBlond lathes manufactured some 40 or 50 years ago and still in service. To augment their business they also acquired the parts and service rights to some other US builders.

Another strong location for US machine tool builders was Milwaukee, WI. One of the strong candidates was the Kearney & Trecker Co., a competitor of The Mill. Another strong entity was Giddings & Lewis in nearby Fond dd Lac, WI.

It was no little coincidence that Milwaukee became famous for its beer, as was Cincinnati. Both are due to the flocks of German immigrants who located there to work in the machine tool factories.

I also agree with the comment the drop in the automotive industry parts suppliers and the steel industry have hurt Cincinnati as well as Clevelend. Dayton was also hurt bigtime by the automotive drop.

I remember years ago when my brother was also a young pup and trying to sell machine tools in the Cleveland area. He worked for the same company as me, LeBlond, in our Cleveland Sales Office. One of the regulars on his itinerary was the U.S.Steel facility in Lorain, Ohio. He worked and worked that account, as one of our specialities was what we called a roll turner, a large capacity lathe designed to specifically dress steel rolling mill rolls. He did manage to get several orders.
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Old 12-14-2013, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,995,912 times
Reputation: 1929
^ Thanks much, kjbrill, for your quick and detailed response--and, btw, in my own haste to conclude my above query, I meant to ask you about Milwaukee's machine-tooling industry, but completely forgot. (In its heyday, how did that city actually compare with Cincinnati?)

Next and last question: Mazak Corporation has become a major tool presence in NKY, namely on Industrial Drive in Florence. What do you know about them?
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 16,709,519 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman View Post
^ Thanks much, kjbrill, for your quick and detailed response--and, btw, in my own haste to conclude my above query, I meant to ask you about Milwaukee's machine-tooling industry, but completely forgot. (In its heyday, how did that city actually compare with Cincinnati?)

Next and last question: Mazak Corporation has become a major tool presence in NKY, namely on Industrial Drive in Florence. What do you know about them?
Mazak is an extention of Yamasaki Machine Tools in Japan. They adopted the name Mazak for operations outside of Japan. To my knowledge, the Florence operation does not manufacture anything, they are a large sales and service operation, similar to my former employer Makino. You obviously do not get to their size unless you produce a creditable product.

Frankly I consider their product the Chevrolet of machine tools. Good quality for the average user. But if you need to exceed the average envelope, you need to step up. But like Chevrolet, they have satisfied the mass market for many years.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:54 PM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,908,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyasdf View Post
It's about time. I was wondering when it was finally going to happen. I just hope Cincy didn't have to incorporate the Dayton area into Cincy area to inflate the numbers enough in order to pass Cleveland. If that's the case, then Cleveland could incorporate the Akron area for their own.
I don't understand how there is a comparison between Cincinnati's metro area of 15 counties to Cleveland's 5. It takes 15 Cincinnati counties to catch-up with Cleveland's 5 and Cincinnati is bragging? If you added 10 counties in Northeast Ohio to Cleveland's MSA there would be 4+ million people.

Just adding adjacent Summit County where Akron is takes the population up to 2.8 million in Cleveland's metro but Akron is a separate metro area. So if a resident of Cuyahoga County moves to adjacent Summit County the Cleveland metro is declining while a resident of Hamilton County moves to Clermont County or across the river to Kentucky into Indiana there is no change; hmmm....
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:00 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,908,109 times
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Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
I would think making your existing area attractive enough to make people want to move and live there to be a very practical goal.
So Franklin and Delaware Counties are considered separate areas?
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