Why is Cincinnati so poor? (Columbus, Dayton: insurance, condo, loans)

[unusualfire]

Originally Posted by flashes1

Any American citizen who is not wealthy, or is not on the road to becoming wealthy, is doing something HORRIBLY wrong. The Vanguard Total Stock Market Index fund has gained 8.38% per year over the prior 10 years, and it gained 18.93% per year over the prior 5 years. That means our 401k and IRA contributions in 2004 have more than doubled, and our 2009 contributions have doubled, etc. etc. And it's already gained 7% in 1H 2014.

I know some people have had poor health, etc. But I don't understand how a healthy, college graduate in their mid-40's is not a millionaire. I can get hit with a 50% loss on my equities tomorrow.....but I will stay the course and keep investing. I believe in the future of America....good times always return.

I implore anyone who's not financially literate to read bogleheads.org. You don't have to make a ton of money to be a millionaire. Live below your means, and invest until it hurts, and do that for 40 years and I promise you will be a multi-millionaire.

Stop f'ing complaining about pensions. They're gone (unless you're a fat cat federal employee).

I'm not sure if you are serious about this or not. But most people are not millionaires.

[flashes1]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

I'm not sure if you are serious about this or not. But most people are not millionaires.

And that's absolutely 100% their fault especially if they're healthy and college educated.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by flashes1

And that's absolutely 100% their fault especially if they're healthy and college educated.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, just because there are a lot of variables that go into someone's wealth besides the two listed.


However, I am 100% with you on your general ideas about financial responsibility. Individuals need to figure out how to live on what they make. "Living", at least the way I see it also should include a contingency for retirement, if one chooses to retire.

And that's why I'm a big proponent of the minimum wage increase, but that topic would severely sidetrack this thread. Bringing it back, no one in this day or age should have a pension. The recession should have shown us how detrimental these funds can be to companies and our nation. Those government pensions come from somewhere too, and if anyone really wants to be serious about cutting our nation's deficit that would be a good place to start.


For Cincinnati, the only easily solvable financial issue I've seen on this thread is pensions. That, and maybe cutting useless positions and other issues general Lean Six Sigma implementation would solve. But pensions seem to be #1.


Having to make payouts to pensioners is not fair to current taxpayers in Cincinnati or Hamilton County. From crumbling civic institutions to non-profits utilizing their budgets to complete public works projects, this city is increasingly becoming an embarrassment from its "poverty". Especially when the solution is so simple. When I have time, I will write a letter to Mr. Cranley myself urging him to eliminate the city's pensions. If anyone wants to co-sign, please let me know here and I will send a private message.

[unusualfire]

You can't eliminate it. Only bankruptcy can do that. Contracts are signed.

[flashes1]

Probably the biggest problem with public worker pensions such as Cincinnati's is how they differ from their private company counterparts such as offering a cost-of-living adjustment and using final 3-5 years of compensation rather than entire career earnings to determine pension payment (this encourages people to game the system by saving up unused sick and vacation time for years so they can take it in final couple years).

On another note, I have a major problem with the existence of public unions. It's not fair that the public employees negotiate their contracts with other public employees or elected officials who aren't held accountable for entering into questionable contracts with the unions. Kind of like who the Hamilton County tax payers are paying for the incompetence of the commissioners who negotiated on their behalf with Mike Brown and the Bengals. They left the tax payers holding the bag on that one.....but what accountability is there? Same thing with prior City of Cinti officials who negotiated lousy contracts with the public employees.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

You can't eliminate it. Only bankruptcy can do that. Contracts are signed.

So maybe that means Cincinnati shouldn't be so worried about fiscal responsibility and instead spend so they can declare bankruptcy and shed pensioners?

It would be a big risk, but it might pay off in the long run.

Good article about the possibility:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...ter-chapter-9#

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by OHKID

Having to make payouts to pensioners is not fair to current taxpayers in Cincinnati or Hamilton County. From crumbling civic institutions to non-profits utilizing their budgets to complete public works projects, this city is increasingly becoming an embarrassment from its "poverty". Especially when the solution is so simple. When I have time, I will write a letter to Mr. Cranley myself urging him to eliminate the city's pensions. If anyone wants to co-sign, please let me know here and I will send a private message.

The only reason pensions are unfair to current taxpayers is they are being paid out of current revenues. This is due to the fact the pension funds were not adequately funded. You can't promise additional pension and then not increase the pension fund contributions. The City simply did not do that. But just eliminating the City's pension obligation, fat chance. As someone else said those are signed contracts as condition of employment.

Yes Private Companies eliminate pensions all the time. But what are they really eliminating, future pension payouts. But pensions already earned have to be tracked and eventually paid out.
If city workers would agree to termination of the pension plans in lieu of some other pension form, say a City contribution to a 401K plan, it night have half a chance. But the way unions are entrenched with the city workers I doubt it.

[CarryOn]

But pensions already earned have to be tracked and eventually paid out.

If for no other reason, it's the ethical thing to do.

[flashes1]

Originally Posted by OHKID

So maybe that means Cincinnati shouldn't be so worried about fiscal responsibility and instead spend so they can declare bankruptcy and shed pensioners?

It would be a big risk, but it might pay off in the long run.

Good article about the possibility:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...ter-chapter-9#

I think you'll see certain states such as California and Illinois file for bankruptcy protection because of pension obligations.....and they're important enough states that the federal government might bail them out if a Democrat is in the White House.

[kjbrill]

This whole pension thing is becoming a big drag.

There is no doubt private business has gotten out of the pension business fast as they can. The government opened the door to that with the 401K. My former employer terminated their pension the month I retired. Just what did terminate mean? No further accrual of pension. Your pension stopped where it was. Some younger employees had only a small amount of accued pension earned, and even that will have to wait until normal retirement age. And the best thing about the 401K contribution for the employer is the employee has to contribute first. If they don't save then they don't get the company contribution.

So if your whole bent-out-of-shape results from the local, state, and federal employee pensions then aim your comments at them. But don't just think they can magically wave a wand and make them disappear. They will have more lawsuits filed than you can count, and I think most of the lawsuits would win on the basis of a trust being violated.

In terms of any intelligent person should be a millionaire, poppycock! I was well on my way there, about 80%, and then the financial markets collapsed. I scrambled for all I was worth selling everything I could. I managed to salvage a fair amount, percentage wise. I actually took a hit twice. Once while I was still working and my 401K lost almost 50%. 2nd time after I had retired and my IRA took a major hit during the market downturn.

I will repeat my contention the younger generations are in for a big world of hurt when they reach retirement age and realize they did not save nearly enough money. You are invincible when you are young and do not realize how fast time goes by.