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Old 07-21-2014, 06:49 PM
 
6,295 posts, read 11,005,087 times
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There are more deaths attributed to automobiles every year in this country than guns.

FastStats - Injuries

That being the case why aren't people trying to ban cars? They are every bit as dangerous as guns and the number of deaths from auto's is likely to go up now that people are driving more recklessly than in years past.

 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:01 PM
 
Location: 45237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
There are more deaths attributed to automobiles every year in this country than guns.

FastStats - Injuries

That being the case why aren't people trying to ban cars? They are every bit as dangerous as guns and the number of deaths from auto's is likely to go up now that people are driving more recklessly than in years past.
I don't know if this is a Red Herring or Straw Man, (debate talk). WILWRadio we're on the same side in the gun debate, but this is a weak argument. The point can be made that cars are a necessity in our society where a gun isn't for most people.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 16,700,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h Steve View Post
I don't know if this is a Red Herring or Straw Man, (debate talk). WILWRadio we're on the same side in the gun debate, but this is a weak argument. The point can be made that cars are a necessity in our society where a gun isn't for most people.
What do you know, a logical statement. Isn't that something to be admired.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:07 PM
 
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WILW, you bring up an excellent point.

That's one of the many reasons why the US needs to start seriously considering alternative (and safer!) modes of transportation. The vehicular homicide rate is inexcusable, and made even worse by driver impairment and distraction.

Every day drivers go to sleep at the wheel, text and drive, drink and drive, get distracted, speed, and do other harm. Cars are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than guns. And that's one reason why I personally advocate for alternative modes of transportation (like freight and commuter rail, non-road biking, buses, streetcars, etc.)

But that's off the original topic.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h Steve View Post
I don't know if this is a Red Herring or Straw Man, (debate talk). WILWRadio we're on the same side in the gun debate, but this is a weak argument. The point can be made that cars are a necessity in our society where a gun isn't for most people.
Pickled Herring. Anything and everything in our world has the potential to be deadly. Everything. That is my point.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
WILW, you bring up an excellent point.

That's one of the many reasons why the US needs to start seriously considering alternative (and safer!) modes of transportation. The vehicular homicide rate is inexcusable, and made even worse by driver impairment and distraction.

Every day drivers go to sleep at the wheel, text and drive, drink and drive, get distracted, speed, and do other harm. Cars are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than guns. And that's one reason why I personally advocate for alternative modes of transportation (like freight and commuter rail, non-road biking, buses, streetcars, etc.)

But that's off the original topic.
And as more people use mass transit and more lines i.e. busses and rail is used, more deaths will result from that as well. I have nothing against mass transit and have used it and believe it is needed in areas where people cannot afford to drive or are unable to drive due to physical disabilities.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy View Post
Alexander Hamilton had this exact same debate with Thomas Jefferson over 200 years ago. Hamilton maintained that common people could not be expected to behave properly, so their rights should be restricted to save them from themselves, and that it was risky to give too much freedom. Jefferson argued that the masses were fundamentally good, and that the people needed to possess more power than the state in order to remain free. I could go on and on about the relationship between special privileges, autonomy, strict vs loose interpretation, voter requirements, public education, and individual rights, but for the sake a brevity I will say that I value Jefferson's arguments quite a bit more than Hamilton's when it comes to creating a better society, and that I philosophically associate Hamilton with the roots of fascism. The freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights are just important today as they were in the days of the constitutional convention.
Very interesting points, especially here. I will say you have done an excellent job putting this in a historical context, and with that you have made me realize I disagree with your ideals and basis for looser gun restrictions 100%.

Hamilton argued that commoners could not be expected to handle guns because they were too uneducated. I agree with that sediment, but not because of a lack of education. I agree because of the fact that the uncommon among the commoners desire guns to kill people.

The masses may be fundamentally good (that depends entirely on the definition of "good" and the amount of groupthink present within the group IMO), but actors within the group may not be fundamentally good (deviants). I will say this nation is built around two qualities which have made it exceptional - individualism (independence, etc.) and liberty (freedom, pursuit of happiness, and all related). And it is important to regulate these in a manner which does not restrict these same rights for the entire population.

That's why I argue more stringent gun rights are a step in the right direction. More stringent gun laws will give me personal liberty to feel safer in my workplace and in public spaces. This is at a very small price. How safe would you or anyone else who uses Washington Park feel if I carried around a nuclear warhead all the time there? Probably not very safe. It would impede on your ability to feel safe within the public realm, commerce could not commence, and society would retreat back to a state similar to the dark ages.

So we all make concessions to our fellow citizens to ensure everyone can have the liberty and individualism they enjoy today. We are not allowed to threaten the lives of others. We are not allowed to scam them of their belongings. We cannot commit indecent acts. Guns threaten the lives of people. That's why they should be restricted as much as possible.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 07:38 PM
 
3,513 posts, read 5,124,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
And as more people use mass transit and more lines i.e. busses and rail is used, more deaths will result from that as well. I have nothing against mass transit and have used it and believe it is needed in areas where people cannot afford to drive or are unable to drive due to physical disabilities.
True. But the rate at which people die on mass transit vs. in automobiles is far lower. The amount of lives cost in freight rail accidents is minuscule compared to lives cost in accidents with semi trucks. Same goes for commute miles traveled by subway train compared to commute miles traveled by personal vehicle.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OHKID View Post
True. But the rate at which people die on mass transit vs. in automobiles is far lower. The amount of lives cost in freight rail accidents is minuscule compared to lives cost in accidents with semi trucks. Same goes for commute miles traveled by subway train compared to commute miles traveled by personal vehicle.
But those rates are going to increase as more riders use more mass transit. You may not have heard but recently the Metro North Rail line in NYC going to CT has seen a number of problems including accidents resulting in many injuries and deaths. Not sure what the cause is but it is apparent the level of service is deteriorating quickly and this will become more widespread with more usage of busses and trains.
 
Old 07-21-2014, 08:20 PM
 
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