Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago high speed rail (Washington, Republic: purchasing, bill, farm)

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

High Speed Rail belongs out there with the door-to-door high grade meat salesmen as they are both conning the American Public.

... and this is the kind of discourse that prevents any meaningful discussion.


HSR isn't something that should be ignored. It's not a laughing matter. We need to get serious about alternative transportation. And probably that means building new rail lines, which if you think about it, could lead to a plethora of new jobs!

I don't understand the opposition. Unless for some reason you like eating meat from pickup trucks. Which who knows? Maybe you do. Or maybe you're the serial Pooper... the world will never know.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by SWOH

... and this is the kind of discourse that prevents any meaningful discussion.


HSR isn't something that should be ignored. It's not a laughing matter. We need to get serious about alternative transportation. And probably that means building new rail lines, which if you think about it, could lead to a plethora of new jobs!

I don't understand the opposition. Unless for some reason you like eating meat from pickup trucks. Which who knows? Maybe you do. Or maybe you're the serial Pooper... the world will never know.

No I seriously disagree. Bring out your financing plan, how the rails and infrastructure will be constructed and paid for and the operating plan and maybe I will listen. Until then it is a pipe dream desired by many who want the public financing to pay for it. Just like my objections to public financed sports facilities. It is time those benefiting from a specific project are directly subjected to paying for it.

To me HSR is a laughing matter, simply because it is not needed.

[kjbrill]

To me the Interstate Highway System is the greatest project this country ever embarked on and has benefited the greatest number or people for any public project in this country. I for one am not ready to throw it on the scrap heap. Let the HSR people not only fully divulge their development and operating costs, but the breath, benefits, and cost to those it will serve. I frankly don't think there is any comparison.

[Wilson513]

This is simple. Trains are a relic. Antiquated. The railroad right of way is an environmental disaster. The cost is astronomical. They are a big waste of money. No one would ever build them other than to squander taxpayers' money. when CSX builds a high speed rail with money borrowed from a bank, I'll reconsider.

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

This is simple. Trains are a relic. Antiquated. The railroad right of way is an environmental disaster. The cost is astronomical. They are a big waste of money. No one would ever build them other than to squander taxpayers' money. when CSX builds a high speed rail with money borrowed from a bank, I'll reconsider.

The entire surface transportation system has been turned upside down in the forty years since I finished my education, But the public doesn't always recognize this because the subject isn't particularly of interest to a younger, more-diverse, and more-feminized audience.

In 1975, the railroads were still committed, by law, to a regulated market expecting the industry to be able to haul anything, from anywhere to anywhere. In real life, trucking had taken most of the better-paying freight, leaving the industry as a carrier of last resort, struggling to avoid bankruptcy in much of the nation.

Economic deregulation and work-rules reform in the mid-Eighties turned the rail industry back into a competitor, but only for the bulk and high-volume freight for which it was best suited. But that market happened to include a generous volume of high-value, well-paying freight in a redesigned container system -- both domestic and imported manufactured goods.

Meanwhile, the trucking industry went through its own re-invention that left many of the old-line carriers of the Sixties bankrupt, and many of the newcomers (J B Hunt, Schneider, NEMF, Eastern Freightways) oriented themselves to cooperation with rail carriers.

Originally Posted by kjbrill

To me the Interstate Highway System is the greatest project this country ever embarked on and has benefited the greatest number or people for any public project in this country. I for one am not ready to throw it on the scrap heap. Let the HSR people not only fully divulge their development and operating costs, but the breath, benefits, and cost to those it will serve. I frankly don't think there is any comparison.

Depending on where you go today, the Interstate Highway System presents a much different picture (at least, to someone who knows what to look for) than what was moving in the Seventies when line-hauls of 2-3,000 miles were much more common in the trucking industry. Ironically, a lot of eastbound freight now moves by rail to container terminals near cities like Albany, Harrisburg and Richmond, then goes the rest of the way by highway, adding to urban congestion and the safety risk of 40-ton semitrailers mixing it up with smaller automobiles.

Which clears the way for the redevelopment, but within the public, rather than the private sector, of those areas where congestion and fuel concerns make mass transit practical. The driving force behind most of this was the rise in the cost of fuel and the certainty of the end of the Age of Petroleum which, recent gyrations in price to the contrary, is a trend that is certain to continue.

So I think we might see some redevelopment of short- and intermediate-distance rail systems. For Ohio, that probably means a statewide system centered on Columbus -- politicians always think of their own wants first. Indiana is more of a challenge because it has little urbanization beyond Indianapolis and the northwest corner of the state. But "High Speed Rail" -- as the politicians like to envision it -- would carry a very heavy price tag.

[WheresTheBeef]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

Which clears the way for the redevelopment, but within the public, rather than the private sector, of those areas where congestion and fuel concerns make mass transit practical. The driving force behind most of this was the rise in the cost of fuel and the certainty of the end of the Age of Petroleum which, recent gyrations in price to the contrary, is a trend that is to continue.

So I think we might see some redevelopment of short- and intermediate-distance rail systems. For Ohio, that probably means a statewide system centered on Columbus -- politicians always think of their own wants first. Indiana is more of a challenge because it has little urbanization beyond Indianapolis and the northwest corner of the state. But "High Speed Rail" -- as the politicians like to envision it -- would carry a very heavy price tag.

And that's really the problem. There are few areas in the United States densely populated enough to warrant a train. And the streetcars that are being proposed are a joke. Street cars will muck up auto traffic, and they also have to stop at stoplights. In other words, the ride will be slooooooooow.

I might be okay with subways, which would run quicker. But I don't think most cities have the density nor would it be cost effective.

Columbus and Dayton used to be served by the old interurban system. I think that's where the train discussion needs to go. If I'm driving every day from Brown or Clinton County to work in Cincinnati, the train is going to be a real benefit for me. I don't see a lot of benefit for any other purpose.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by WheresTheBeef

And that's really the problem. There are few areas in the United States densely populated enough to warrant a train. And the streetcars that are being proposed are a joke. Street cars will muck up auto traffic, and they also have to stop at stoplights. In other words, the ride will be slooooooooow.

I might be okay with subways, which would run quicker. But I don't think most cities have the density nor would it be cost effective.

Columbus and Dayton used to be served by the old interurban system. I think that's where the train discussion needs to go. If I'm driving every day from Brown or Clinton County to work in Cincinnati, the train is going to be a real benefit for me. I don't see a lot of benefit for any other purpose.

Agreed! Let's bring the interurbans back.

Dayton at least still has the infrastructure with the electric trolleybus system. I don't know the cost per mile to build it out, but it seems like a practical intermediate approach to me.

[WheresTheBeef]

Originally Posted by SWOH

Agreed! Let's bring the interurbans back.

Dayton at least still has the infrastructure with the electric trolleybus system. I don't know the cost per mile to build it out, but it seems like a practical intermediate approach to me.

Look at the map (linked). It makes a lot of sense. And if they could do something like this back in those days, I don't see why they couldn't do it now.

The only difference is that there would have to be suburban stops and maybe it would have to be integrated with express busses to take you where you need to go.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...erson-1913.jpg

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

High Speed Rail belongs out there with the door-to-door high grade meat salesmen as they are both conning the American Public.

Be honest, how fast does your monthly Car & Driver become too sticky to open?

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by SWOH

... and this is the kind of discourse that prevents any meaningful discussion.


HSR isn't something that should be ignored. It's not a laughing matter. We need to get serious about alternative transportation. And probably that means building new rail lines, which if you think about it, could lead to a plethora of new jobs!

I don't understand the opposition. Unless for some reason you like eating meat from pickup trucks. Which who knows? Maybe you do. Or maybe you're the serial Pooper... the world will never know.

The truth is that no meaningful discussion will ever be had on this issue with some people. The ones most opposed to alternative transit, like Wilson and kjbrill, come from a much different generation that has spent its entire existence fetishizing a car-based lifestyle. These just aren't the people you have to focus on. Their minds are made up, they're not changing. They love the car and they demand you love it too.