Crime in Cincinnati? (Norwood, Lebanon, Washington: renting, loft, high crime)

[hillside]

jlrosen,

same goes for you. my view of the city comes from the bad parts of town, and it is undeniable that there are more bad areas than good in cincinnati.

you fail to see the big picture. this so called renaissance with otr and streetcars is like griffey coming to town. its not a guarantee of winning because its not a comprehensive solution. education and jobs for folks with little education is the real solution. and an overhaul of the "justice" system and tax structure, but thats reeely dreamin...

[Briolat21]

Having just moved here from SE Michigan (the Detroit area) - I think there are a lot of valid comparisons btw. Cinci and Detroit. I would add that the people who have chosen to stay in Detroit or who have deliberately moved there will defend their city with the same passion that has been shown on this blog. They will cite the new stadiums, the new development. But the problems, poor residential neighborhoods, poor infrastructure, high taxes, poor schools, crime, never go away. They just go away from the "visitor areas" (the stadiums, theatres, restaurants, etc..).

I have watched for 30+ years as Detroit has always been on the verge of a comeback.

I am fearful that I hear the rhetoric here.

I first lived here in Northside on Pullan, just a couple of blocks off Chase. While Northside is cute and fun, there are definitely areas there that are still rough. The UDF that I walked to at night had shootings, just not a good area.. That doesn't mean Northside is bad - but like the whole of Cincinnati, there is a LOT left to improve.

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise

Is Milwaukee going to land an NFL team, probably not because that city sucks.

Just an observation here ... While I appreciate your shedding positive light on Cincinnati, must you rag on another city to do so?

[Cincy-Rise]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Just an observation here ... While I appreciate your shedding positive light on Cincinnati, must you rag on another city to do so?

Ohiogirl81, that was obviously sarcasm.

i.e. If Cincy doesn't land an NBA team, it must be doing something wrong as a city. The same can be said for any major city in the US without a specific professional sport.

Hillside, another post without links (well, except for one ... more on that later). I'll reply later today with info when I have more time.

Briolat21, I would love to do a Cincy/Detroit comparison, but it's going to have to be later on today. I think when you see the numbers side-by-side that's when you see a difference.

[Ohiogirl81]

My bad! Sometimes my sarcasm-o-meter is a tad off. Especially in the mornings. Maybe I shouldn't post until noon, LOL.

Carry on ...

[hillside]

briolat21,

dead on. my friends from college and my family up there live and die for your city. i like detroit, so...

i understand why people from underprivileged situations would defend their city at all costs, i mean they've heard how bad it is for years from those who never been there. but for those with means to ignore the obvious suggests they are downplaying what a majority of the city has to live through.

cincy rise,

i just told you, the enquirer had 2 of my articles under a paid archive. as much as i'd like to flatter you with news outlets you so crave, i'm not giving gannett anything for anybody. but you can try

county fights infant mortality crisis oct 7 2007

it was a front page detail story when the poverty news came out in august so look for that time frame

and about the nba....cincinnati is a pro town. cincinnati loves basketball. cincinnati should have a pro basketball team. 1+1=2?

we are not a small market, with columbus, dayton, louisville and lexington all close. minneapolis is a small market. there is nothing outside of twin cities. they have a squad.

[Briolat21]

I am not saying Cinc = Detroit, or anything similar. Both cities are wonderful, both in different ways. I just think its funny that the people who are saying Cinci is coming back use Detroit to justify their opinion of Cinci -- when the people in Detroit would say the exact same things about Detroit - maybe using some other city on hard times to defend themselves.

Cinci is a cool place. I enjoyed a lot about it. But, just like Detroit, it faces some real challenges, or at least that is my perspective. The school district, affordable safe housing for residents, mass transportation, police presence, etc..

These are the same issues that a large number of old manufacturing cities are facing.

I just worry because a lot of what I saw going on in Cinci when I was living in Northside (and driving around the whole city looking at houses) and a lot of what I hear on this blog reminds me so much of what has been said in Detroit for 30 years. And while the tourist-y areas of Detroit have gotten better, the living situation for the majority of residents has not gotten better. And I hear the same things here - things that sound like a denial of the reality of life in the city if you are poor and do not have opportunities.

Truthfully, if you have money, you probably can have a pretty good life - in the city or out of it. But, as in Detroit, if you do not have money, if you are trapped - it does not seem as though much is being done to address that. And that is where a lot of Detroit's problems (poverty, drugs, guns, violence) stemmed from.

I see Cinci as Detroit - circa 1978. It can make some choices which will change the path its on and make the city really vibrant again. Or it can ignore the tensions, and the poverty, and it can go down the road that Detroit set on. And in 30 years people will still be saying "we're on the verge of a comeback".

I hope that Cinci follows a wiser course than Detroit did.

[Cincy-Rise]

Originally Posted by Briolat21

I just think its funny that the people who are saying Cinci is coming back use Detroit to justify their opinion of Cinci -- when the people in Detroit would say the exact same things about Detroit

I'm not sure who you are addressing here? Me? I've never said this.

But, just like Detroit, it faces some real challenges, or at least that is my perspective.

Every large city faces "real challenges".

It is ridiculous to compare Cincy and Detroit. No city in the history of the US has faced the misfortune that Detroit has.

The school district, affordable safe housing for residents, mass transportation, police presence, etc..

Like I said upthread; Suburban SD's and Private Schools almost always have the advantage over the public sector. This is not special to Detroit, Cincy, Minneapolis, Boston, LA, or Phoenix ... no one.

Mass transit is another issue. We lack huge in this area and coincidentally ... a lot of this is because of Detroit. The same baby that Detroit created also killed itself. GM, the government (Interstate System) and the Great Depression helped rid our city of our streetcars that were once prominent on our streets.

Police Presence is a subjective matter. Our crime is decreasing at a quick rate, so I'm not really sure what your point is here?

These are the same issues that a large number of old manufacturing cities are facing.

Very true. Luckily a lot of our economic presence is in the Financial and Insurance scene.

I just worry because a lot of what I saw going on in Cinci when I was living in Northside (and driving around the whole city looking at houses) and a lot of what I hear on this blog reminds me so much of what has been said in Detroit for 30 years.

Actually, I hear a lot of the opposite on this thread and in the burbs. Singing the same 'ole tune and throwing out stats from 2001.

You basing your opinion or assumption on what you saw is very unreliable and un-scientific.

I could be in Hatford, Connecticut and whitness a robbing take place and think, man this place is crime ridden, but in fact it's the opposite.

And while the tourist-y areas of Detroit have gotten better, the living situation for the majority of residents has not gotten better. And I hear the same things here - things that sound like a denial of the reality of life in the city if you are poor and do not have opportunities.

As stated upthread; the reality is our un-employment rate is below the national average. Crime is decresing year after year, the city is gaining population, and there is an enormous amount of investment going on in our city.

Would you say that the categories listed above would apply to Detroit?

Truthfully, if you have money, you probably can have a pretty good life - in the city or out of it.

Can apply to any city.

But, as in Detroit, if you do not have money, if you are trapped - it does not seem as though much is being done to address that.

In the chart that is supplied below, you have a very good point. In Detroit the crime patter is synonymous with the un-employment rate.

And that is where a lot of Detroit's problems (poverty, drugs, guns, violence) stemmed from.

Or you could say:

And that is where a lot of _______'s (fill in the blank) problems (poverty, drugs, guns, violence) stemmed from.

I see Cinci as Detroit - circa 1978. It can make some choices which will change the path its on and make the city really vibrant again.

Actually, this is already (has) happened.

See interest/development/and population growth in the city center for evidence.

Or it can ignore the tensions, and the poverty, and it can go down the road that Detroit set on.

Like I said, no city has ever faced the downfall that Detroit has, this includes St. Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh (heavy industrial cities) ... so you will never see Cincinnati follow, especially when we are presently making a quick come-back.

And in 30 years people will still be saying "we're on the verge of a comeback".

Too late!



Briolat21, check this out. Since you used to live in Detroit, you'll probably find this interesting.

I'm curious as to your feedback on the charts and info after you read it ... please share!

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/pre...r_May_2007.pdf

[Briolat21]

No, I was not specifically addressing issues to you Cincy-Rises, though you are certainly among the most vocal advocates for Cincinnati. Which is good - every metropolitan area needs vocal champions.

I am too new here to have made up my mind one way or the other on Cinci. It is an interesting city with a lot of things going for it. Similarly, I see a lot of potential challenges ahead.

I guess what worries me - what I have seen on these blogs (not from you, just in general), is a lot of talk that seems to suggest that gentification is the answer to all of Cinci's plights. The problem with that is - where do the people displaced (if in fact they are displaced) by the gentrification go? If they are not displaced, how do the neighborhoods handle the tension - socioeconomic, racial, whatever - that is further exacerbated by the gentrification?

When I lived in Northside, admittedly, only for 6 months - there were a number of shootings within a couple of blocks of where I was staying. I was not thrilled by this. However the people I was staying with (yuppies, for all intents and purposes) would blithely ignore that they lived on the edge of a less than ideal area. They would say "oh - its drugs, as long as you don't do drugs, you're fine". When I pointed out that bullets can miss their intended targets I would get a lot of "That doesn't happen here". When I pointed out that people who have figured out how to walk up to someone and shoot them can figure out how to do it in a car - drive bys, I was told "Cincinnati doesn't have drive bys".

Unfortunately, as the news has reported drive-bys, apparently they were mistaken. Cinci has figured out how to drive a car and operate a hand gun.

Honestly, I encounted this a lot among a privledged set of Cincinnati residents. When driving around neighborhoods in Cinci to look at living there - College Hill, North College Hill, Mt. Healthy, Mt. Airy, Oakley, Madisonville, Pleasant Ridge, Montogomery (in the CHEAP areas). And I have heard a lot of this on the boards. Not necessarily in this thread, but in general. As though Cincinnati is somehow special in that its crime is completely contained to a certain type of person and it can never spill over to the wider neighborhood or innocent victims. Also, a real veiled kind of hostility towards the "wrong sort" of person. Not always a racial hostility, but always a socioeconomic hostility. As in "THEY" are moving into our neighborhoods and messing things up.

That was Detroit 1970's. Things were bad - but about to get much worse.

I am hopeful that you are right Cincy-Rises -- that somehow redevelopment of the city offers a lot of opportunities to city residents, not just suburban outsiders. That Winton Terrace, Mt. Healthy, N. College Hill, WestWood, etc.. all benefit from this as much as the obvious places will (like CBD, Mt. Adams, Hyde Park, etc..)

I will be happy to see that. Right now, I still think Cinci could go either way. You say they have already turned the corner. I am happy to hear that, personally I will reserve judgement and wait a few years and see what happens.

By the way - your Charts for Detroit were excellent. Yes, Detroit was doing better for a little while, but in the last several years with the deterioration (Further) of the auto market and now the housing crisis - things are as bad there as they have been in a long time. It was not hard for me to leave the area to relocate.

I hope that in 10 years I hear "When Cinci's comeback in the early 2000's started, no one knew that it would be as complete and succeful as it has shown to be"...

[Cincy-Rise]

Briolat21, thanks for the thorough post. It's nice to actually have a healthy debate on here for once.

I like your sit-and-wait approach to this whole thing. At least you are questioning things. It's too bad that you can't have a personal influence in the change that's taking place (assuming you moved to the Monroe area based on a comment you made in another thread), but do not let that stop you from becoming involved by visiting Cincinnati and spending your afternoons/evenings here, whether it be at a museum, concert, local restaurant, theatre, professional game, etc ...

Your roommates in Northside were partly correct.

The number of driveby's is very rare here, but they do happen. I once lived in a city near Tennessee and Mississippi that had a population of about 40,000 (about the same size of Westwood alone) residents ... they also had driveby's. It's inescapable.

But this is not to excuse a driveby.

Your roommates were also correct about the correlation between drugs and crime. The two are almost always linked. As a matter of fact, the two are so related that the chief of police was quoted as stating this and warning citizens of the consequences of buying illegal drugs.

The truth about stray bullets is that you are more likely to be a victim of a fatal car wreck on 75, 71, or 275 than being hit by a stray bullet, but you will not see me avoid those interstates because of this. This is a risk that I'm willing to make -and I'm not sure there is anyone out there that will argue this.

There have been two instances that have taken place in the past couple of years though that I am aware of and this is very unfortunate, but the occurrences that I constantly here about on the news are incidences of vehicular homicide.

The topic you brought up about gentrification is a very real concern. You can't just push crime or the homeless out to the 3rd ring suburbs and expect that problem to be "fixed".

One of the things that Cincinnati has created/formed is very awesome and efficient. I really like the idea and it's the same program that Boston used in the mid-90's -the CIRV.

Check it out in this post that I just put up last night!

http://www.city-data.com/forum/cinci...tate-city.html

Take care!