U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-03-2015, 04:40 AM
 
5,337 posts, read 7,695,067 times
Reputation: 9563

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
Actually, nope. The primary reason they were built is to allow the military to move equipment around the country with ease. Otherwise I doubt the Interstate system ever would have evolved into its present day size.
Not a fan? Do you ever drive on the interstate highways and benefit from them?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-03-2015, 06:20 AM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,780,399 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by missik999 View Post
Not a fan? Do you ever drive on the interstate highways and benefit from them?
Just because I have to use it does not mean I like it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2015, 06:22 AM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,780,399 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
Sure. Let me re-phrase.

Let's say the city tries out not paving their roads to cut costs (this happened in Trotwood, OH). For a year or two, the plan works fine, and then businesses start to leave. These businesses cite crumbling infrastructure.

AT THAT MOMENT, city leaders need to realize their policy of not paving roads failed, and they need to get the asphalt trucks out now or risk losing more businesses and more tax revenue.

Fail fast, fail often, correct fast, correct often, move on.

That's the way it needs to be done, and that's precisely what industry does.


And actually, that's what's happening with the streetcar too in a sense - a small test will occur, if it's a success then move forward with Phase 1B, and if that is a success, do lines uptown, coordinate with TANK to loop in Covington/Newport, etc.


Cincinnati has a storied history of "missing the boat", sometimes literally. Look to the city's miserably slow adoption of railroads (and steadfast devotion to, by that time, severely outdated riverboats) as one example. Look again to the 3/4 finished subway system. And there are many more examples too.

Cincinnati this time is right about on target, progress-wise. Slightly behind Cleveland, which is normal, right on time with Detroit, and ahead of places like Indianapolis. No surprise. Every city in which BRT or Streetcars have been implemented so far have proven it to be a success, so I'm hoping the same is true for Cincinnati.
All I am saying is that Cincinnati is headed toward becoming insolvent if they don't start to manage the public's money better. That simple. You can't keep spending money you don't have without something happening a few years down the road. And it is the Millenials and the generation behind them that will pay dearly for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2015, 08:13 AM
 
236 posts, read 216,117 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
All I am saying is that Cincinnati is headed toward becoming insolvent if they don't start to manage the public's money better. That simple. You can't keep spending money you don't have without something happening a few years down the road. And it is the Millenials and the generation behind them that will pay dearly for it.
How much is the city in debt? How much is the streetcar really put the city back financially? I'd imagine if we look at the numbers, it's not nearly as drastic from a numbers perspective. And if I remember correctly, the FY 2015 budget was balanced and FY 2016 is scheduled to be a slight surplus. What we're talking about here is a project which will result in a $3-4 million annual operating budget which is again about 1% of the cities yearly operating budget. Meanwhile, city golf courses have an operating budget of almost $7 million dollars a year and the city pays out almost $2 million dollars a year to "general aviation". Where is the outrage on those items?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2015, 04:18 PM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,780,399 times
Reputation: 2368
Cincinnati had a budget deficit this year at around 21 million until some fees were raised on city services. Now it is balanced but again initially it was a deficit and fees had to be raised to balance it.

2016 appears to be set at around 370 million with no projected deficit at the moment. But clearly that can change since we are not even in 2016 yet.

While the initial construction leg or phase of the Street Car is not directly contributing to the debt, it is highly likely the annual operating costs will rise and won't come close to being offset by direct operating income. And keep in mind that the Feds kicked in 45 million contingent upon certain criteria be met such as the hours and days it operates and I would presume the number of cars in use. Any cuts to hours of operation below a certain threshold and the contracts with the Feds are violated. And that brings penalties.

But the bigger issue is how would a mile long gopher hole be financed? I would wager a year's worth of my paychecks that it will cost at minimum a billion dollars to build. And that is likely to balloon since projects of this nature never come in on budget and ALWAYS have cost overruns amounting to millions or even billions. Since there ain't a billion dollars lying around in a Rainy Day Fund, it seems obvious loans of some kind that will put the city in debt for decades is the ONLY way to pay for this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2015, 07:40 AM
 
236 posts, read 216,117 times
Reputation: 244
So how can one say the city is drowning in debt if City Counsel is balancing the budget?

Can you provide any supporting data to support your belief as to why the operating costs will be more than $3-4 million dollars? I can believe in unicorns but that doesn't make them real. And again, why are you so concerned about the streetcar breaking even?

I will say I think the tunnel is a ridiculous idea. I think we can all see the tracks running up Vine and terminating at UC or the Zoo on the street. More important than digging some tunnel will be to potentially have the street car given it's own lane separate from cars and to have signal prioritization at all traffic lights.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2015, 07:55 AM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,780,399 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin1813 View Post
So how can one say the city is drowning in debt if City Counsel is balancing the budget?

Can you provide any supporting data to support your belief as to why the operating costs will be more than $3-4 million dollars? I can believe in unicorns but that doesn't make them real. And again, why are you so concerned about the streetcar breaking even?

I will say I think the tunnel is a ridiculous idea. I think we can all see the tracks running up Vine and terminating at UC or the Zoo on the street. More important than digging some tunnel will be to potentially have the street car given it's own lane separate from cars and to have signal prioritization at all traffic lights.
For many years the city has been drowning in debt. Tens of millions each year. But they keep raising taxes or fees to solve the problem. Eventually this will drive people out of the city and as the population declines and revenues decline but the budget increases you end up with a very big mess.

I never implied the operating costs were going to exceed the "new" or updated and revised annual budget. But it is a safe bet to expect that figure to rise quickly since inflation is a problem and that maintenance costs will rise quickly beyond the revised budget. The initial budget to run the first leg that I read indicated it would cost 2 to 2.7 million a year. In just a few years that figure has nearly doubled.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2015, 10:35 AM
 
236 posts, read 216,117 times
Reputation: 244
US levels of inflation have been relatively low (except on Fox News) in recent years. If we do have inflation, it will simply serve to drive down the relative value of the current debt.

According to the Enquirer, debt payments only account for 10% of the cities annual operating budget. This is far from an outrageous number. I'm a huge proponent of keeping debt in line, but I feel like people are blowing the cities debt out of proportion.

Was it wrong to perform what I'm assuming was needed replacement projects for the Cinci Water Works (the biggest reason for increase at a time when interest rates are at historic lows? Hard to follow the reasoning behind people claiming that was a waste or mismanagement. Should they have waited for interest rates to rise?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2015, 06:41 AM
 
5,658 posts, read 8,780,399 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin1813 View Post
US levels of inflation have been relatively low (except on Fox News) in recent years. If we do have inflation, it will simply serve to drive down the relative value of the current debt.

According to the Enquirer, debt payments only account for 10% of the cities annual operating budget. This is far from an outrageous number. I'm a huge proponent of keeping debt in line, but I feel like people are blowing the cities debt out of proportion.

Was it wrong to perform what I'm assuming was needed replacement projects for the Cinci Water Works (the biggest reason for increase at a time when interest rates are at historic lows? Hard to follow the reasoning behind people claiming that was a waste or mismanagement. Should they have waited for interest rates to rise?
There is a big difference in replacing or repairing infrastructure that is a necessity for every day living vs. a frivolity like building a Slight Rail line or especially proposing to dig a very large gopher hole for a new line.

Food prices have doubled in the last three to five years. Clothes? Up dramatically. I keep track of my expenses with account software and I've seen my cost of living virtually double since 2007.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-06-2015, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Landen
17 posts, read 12,171 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
There is a big difference in replacing or repairing infrastructure that is a necessity for every day living vs. a frivolity like building a Slight Rail line or especially proposing to dig a very large gopher hole for a new line.
You lost your own argument.
Cars and roads are only a necessity for you because you have accepted and built your lifestyle around personal vehicles. Plenty of people in the world get around solely by walking, taking public transit, or paying for a cab/uber now and then.

Do we need roads to transport goods? Yes. Do we need roads to get from town to town? Yes indeed.
Do we need means of reducing congestion in the densest parts of our cities? Uh. Yes. We do. Cincinnati is not yet what it will be. It will need a well-planned public transit system to become a world class city again.
Try taking the bus once in a while. Just try it. It sucks here compared to other areas. In Sacramento I could take the rail from Intel in Folsom to downtown in about 20-25 minutes in dead stop rush hour. It got crowded towards town. Lot's of /those people/. But it was fast. It was safe. It was cheap.


(I agree with you on the tunnel thing though. Waste of time. Period. ROI is hugely negative, even in terms of adding access to those who need it)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top