More Streetcar Delays (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Trotwood: loans, how much, income)

[motorman]

Originally Posted by missik999

John Schneider has a long track record of achievements, is forward-thinking, extremely positive, loves Cincinnati and knows the city well.

Willie Cunningham is a long time radio host who spews negativity about almost any subject including Great American Ballpark when it was in the planning stages. All he is concerned about is ratings, and negativity and controversy are great for ratings...

^ (This!)

[WILWRadio]

I'd liken this entire proposal to dig a tunnel to the following. You go to a car dealer to buy a car. You see a car you like on the lot. No price showing. You go talk to a sales guy and he says "well, we're not quite sure what the cost will be just yet. But let's go ahead and sign a contract and afterward we'll figure out what you will have to pay".

[SWOH]

^Yeah, and Cincinnati isn't signing contracts to build this tomorrow either.

Studies still need to be done. Schneider has done a great deal of preliminary work, and he has come to the conclusion from that work that the tunnel is the best option. He still needs to lay out his exact reasoning, sure, but that work alone will save the city a significant chunk of money as they continue into their own studies towards building Phase 1B.

[WILWRadio]

Call me a "Doubting Thomas". If Cincinnati does not already have one it needs a citizens watch dog group to keep tabs on the spending going on at City Hall.

[SWOH]

^I don't think anyone will dispute you on that, it's certainly important to keep budgets in check, but it's also important for government to be responsive to the needs of the community and the competition posed by other cities.

Government needs to try new things, and not be entirely afraid of failure. Fail fast, fail often, build on success, and move on.

We get in a mentality where we are always afraid of screwing up. Sure, there are things that must work the first time without failure (like a new Brent Spence Bridge for instance) but more often than not there is room for flexibility and we need to capitalize on it.

I agree that we shouldn't be running full boar into building Phase 1B of the streetcar before the first rider has boarded, but I don't think that should stop the planning process and idea discussion. And I'm sure Schneider tested his ideas thoroughly and has a lot of research behind why exactly he thinks the tunnel is the best idea. I agree he needs to be more transparent with cost figures though, although I will say Cunningham's show would not be the best place to detail dense cost figures or try to explain the complex reasoning behind the ideas proposed. The second he would start talking about an idea, he'd get shouted down. A website with all the figures would be both easy to set up and far more appropriate. Or if they want to inform EVERYONE, a mailer would do the trick too.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by SWOH

^I don't think anyone will dispute you on that, it's certainly important to keep budgets in check, but it's also important for government to be responsive to the needs of the community and the competition posed by other cities.

Government needs to try new things, and not be entirely afraid of failure. Fail fast, fail often, build on success, and move on.

We get in a mentality where we are always afraid of screwing up. Sure, there are things that must work the first time without failure (like a new Brent Spence Bridge for instance) but more often than not there is room for flexibility and we need to capitalize on it.

I agree that we shouldn't be running full boar into building Phase 1B of the streetcar before the first rider has boarded, but I don't think that should stop the planning process and idea discussion. And I'm sure Schneider tested his ideas thoroughly and has a lot of research behind why exactly he thinks the tunnel is the best idea. I agree he needs to be more transparent with cost figures though, although I will say Cunningham's show would not be the best place to detail dense cost figures or try to explain the complex reasoning behind the ideas proposed. The second he would start talking about an idea, he'd get shouted down. A website with all the figures would be both easy to set up and far more appropriate. Or if they want to inform EVERYONE, a mailer would do the trick too.

Sure, what's a few more failures adding to the increasing burden to the taxpayers. Government is NOT in the business of wasting the public's money. Innovation should be left to private individuals and corporations where the risks are borne by a few, not the entire tax paying public.

I've seen too many serious wastes of tax dollars in Cincinnati since I purchased my home in 2012. It all adds up and if the trend continues the city will end up bankrupt. And what happens in Cincinnati will have an impact on the surrounding communities...

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Sure, what's a few more failures adding to the increasing burden to the taxpayers. Government is NOT in the business of wasting the public's money. Innovation should be left to private individuals and corporations where the risks are borne by a few, not the entire tax paying public.

I've seen too many serious wastes of tax dollars in Cincinnati since I purchased my home in 2012. It all adds up and if the trend continues the city will end up bankrupt. And what happens in Cincinnati will have an impact on the surrounding communities...

Not as much as some might expect. North, south and west are rather independently based.

[C0de_M0nkey]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Sure, what's a few more failures adding to the increasing burden to the taxpayers. Government is NOT in the business of wasting the public's money. Innovation should be left to private individuals and corporations where the risks are borne by a few, not the entire tax paying public.

I've seen too many serious wastes of tax dollars in Cincinnati since I purchased my home in 2012. It all adds up and if the trend continues the city will end up bankrupt. And what happens in Cincinnati will have an impact on the surrounding communities...

I guess you're not a big fan of the Federal Highways then.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by C0de_M0nkey

I guess you're not a big fan of the Federal Highways then.

Actually, nope. The primary reason they were built is to allow the military to move equipment around the country with ease. Otherwise I doubt the Interstate system ever would have evolved into its present day size.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Sure, what's a few more failures adding to the increasing burden to the taxpayers. Government is NOT in the business of wasting the public's money. Innovation should be left to private individuals and corporations where the risks are borne by a few, not the entire tax paying public.

Sure. Let me re-phrase.

Let's say the city tries out not paving their roads to cut costs (this happened in Trotwood, OH). For a year or two, the plan works fine, and then businesses start to leave. These businesses cite crumbling infrastructure.

AT THAT MOMENT, city leaders need to realize their policy of not paving roads failed, and they need to get the asphalt trucks out now or risk losing more businesses and more tax revenue.

Fail fast, fail often, correct fast, correct often, move on.

That's the way it needs to be done, and that's precisely what industry does.


And actually, that's what's happening with the streetcar too in a sense - a small test will occur, if it's a success then move forward with Phase 1B, and if that is a success, do lines uptown, coordinate with TANK to loop in Covington/Newport, etc.


Cincinnati has a storied history of "missing the boat", sometimes literally. Look to the city's miserably slow adoption of railroads (and steadfast devotion to, by that time, severely outdated riverboats) as one example. Look again to the 3/4 finished subway system. And there are many more examples too.

Cincinnati this time is right about on target, progress-wise. Slightly behind Cleveland, which is normal, right on time with Detroit, and ahead of places like Indianapolis. No surprise. Every city in which BRT or Streetcars have been implemented so far have proven it to be a success, so I'm hoping the same is true for Cincinnati.