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Old 10-23-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Middletown, Ohio
1,727 posts, read 2,229,283 times
Reputation: 6382

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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmodder View Post
Look, we both understand that the type of people that patronize an establishment ultimately dictate it's success. If people feel unsafe or if there are reports of theft and vandalism, we know that the good patrons are not going to continue to want to shop there! We know that a vast majority of people do not want to deal with riffraff or feel uncomfortable while they are trying to purchase items!

Anyone can patronize an establishment, but it's the actions of said patrons which are the concern here. "we" refers to those persons who actually care about what happens to the place over time. I don't understand what your argument is here. We are both respectable, tax paying members of society with advanced degrees. We both enjoy the nice retail locations that Cincy has to offer. Why wouldn't we want to keep these places and things we enjoy looking nice? Why would we want them to fall to the same fate as other malls because people who are unlike us without any values don't care what happens to the place?!

If an officer sees exhibit A walking round this new location with his pants falling off his ankles, throwing up the middle finger to the sky, should he just simply go against his gut feeling and pay no mind? No, he's going to watch this guy like a hawk because generalizations and stereotypes dictate that he do so. Why should the assessment by you, or I or any citizen be any different than that of an officer? The odds are that said the person acting and looking like a trouble maker IS a trouble maker, and that they will cause problems.



What do you think the impact would be on the success of that retail location if we had a bunch of these types seen in the photo below running around causing problems? Is this now acceptable behavior? Are we not allowed to deem what is acceptable or what is not acceptable action or behavior because someone might be offended? When did we become the united states of wussification? Personally I find it rather off putting that someone would think that I or anyone else in similar position doesn't have enough street smarts and intelligence to be able to distinguish riffraff from non riffraff, and that tone of skin of the individual would have ANY impact whatsoever in said assessment.
You are providing a good argument here, and you're making me think...

But let me digress for a minute...if you didn't know me, know that I am a 270-pound Army veteran, and I am nobody's 'wuss'...but again, I think you're going off the rails here, and I'll tell you why

Did the guy in the picture rub me the wrong way? You're dang right he did (melanin level notwithstanding LOL)...but as Briolat21 accurately pointed out upthread, my wife and I do our level best to AVOID folks like that should we encounter them in public...I'm not gonna let someone like that spoil what might be a pleasant evening...we avoid them, or I give them what my wife calls 'the PPL (paint-peeling look, as in melt paint from a wall)' and go on about my business

Have we gotten a little thin-skinned in America lately? I'd say yes---doesn't take much for some folk to get offended...but I take great care not to join in the chorus, because I'm gonna take care of myself and my wife, and not waste energy whining about something that's usually of little on no concern to us

The key is, NOT to let people like that deter you and yours from having a pleasant experience, no matter where that might be...I'm almost 60 now, and I had to learn to do things a little differently, yet still be myself...let the police and whatever security is present sort that out
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:04 PM
 
3,751 posts, read 10,229,734 times
Reputation: 6561
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmodder View Post
Buy why should this even be allowed to be a possibility to begin with? Call it forward thinking, call it whatever you may, but wouldn't it just be a whole lot BETTER if you didn't have to deal with it in the fisrt place and not have to side step it? That it would be broken up before it even really evolved into a situation that is even noticeable in the first place? Wouldn't it be a whole lot better if you didn't have to hear stories about vandalism, theft, and assault at your local mall to being with? Liberty City is doing it right with all the police and security on hand. If it wasn't perceived to be a potential issue, then why so much security?

People like to poke fun at the whole "safe place" idea and criticize those who are overly cautious. Yes, we can all tuck in our guns with our concealed carry permits and walk around like safety isn't a concern because if anyone tries anything we will just exert self defense with our firearm, but the reality is that it's just not that simple. Someone tries to mug you and you shoot them, be prepared for high level of stress, lost time at work, $$$, court hearings..the list goes on. Wouldn't it just make more sense to keep security levels high and create a safe environment so that people feel safer and send a message that criminal activity will not be tolerated and will be punished to the max? That is the message that Liberty Center is sending.
Actually, since I don't carry (and I despise guns), my feelings of safety are categorically not linked to that.

Probably do to the fact that I've lived in Chicago, I was raised in the 'burbs outside Detroit (and as a child I relatively routinely took the bus into the city to go to the DIA, or Science Museum, or Library), I've spent time in Juarez (went to college not far away) and most of the time I was travelling around the country, I was doing it alone .. as a short, white, young-looking girl.

and in all of those places/times, I've never been seriously accosted.

Sure, I've gotten catcalled, and a few choice comments .. but since I'm not made of spun-sugar, a few comments don't mean much to me.

I've never had anyone actually try to screw with me. I'd be bummed if they did, and sure, I might then go through a paranoid phase where I think everyone is trying to hurt me.

But I remember being an idiot teenager hanging out at the mall, with my rooster bags, and my tight wasted - pleated pants (oh... the '80s were an unkind time fashion-wise)... and we always hung in groups of 3+ ... with more joining us as we ran into friends..

and we were silly. Laughing obnoxiously, hooting at friends. BEING CHILDREN.

But little old women didn't think we were going to roll them, just because we were there being loud.

And I'm not yet to a place in my life where I automatically suspect rowdy youth of being out to roll me.


I don't have any issue with people not wanting to be hassled, but I don't think walking around a group of people that are having fun (albeit - idiot fun) and in no other way causing an impact in my life - is a big deal.

If they were shouting at me, or physically accosting me, or anything else -sure let the security guards toss 'em out.

But if they're standing in a big circle doing skateboard tricks, or break dancing, or doing a mime show ...

how's that bothering me? Even if they're shouting/whooping/being idiots...?

I'm just not that fragile.

I recognize that some others are, or think of themselves as such.

Hopefully Liberty Twp (like the Green) will form a large, diverse, community of people enjoying the new space .. and if some areas are too rambunctious for some folks, there will be other areas that will perhaps be more laid back and quiet and to their taste. (there are apparently numerous public "park" spaces that will hopefully become gathering spots)..


Note: The one obnoxious group of kids I have run into down here, were a bunch of MIDDLESCHOOLERS on a late summer (after school was back in session) night in the parking lot of the UDF in Northside .. They were smoking down, and apparently thought it'd be fun to see if they could scare me. (Because kids who are assumed to be scary, take pleasure in actually scaring - because if you're already doing the time, you might as well do the crime...). I walked right through them, head up, nodded as I walked by, and nothing happened. No one followed, no one touched me, no one barred my way. They were challenging me to see if I was going to go "ROWDY YOUTH!!! RUN!!!" and instead I went *yawn* - kiddies out past bed time...

there is a lot to be said for the fact that if you act like a victim, at some point you will run into someone who will be willing to take advantage of that fact. Which is not to say that its the victim's fault, but it is to say that I never act like a victim when I'm walking around any crowded area -- be it shopping mall or downtown urbanity.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:17 PM
 
4,237 posts, read 3,298,662 times
Reputation: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmodder View Post
Look, we both understand that the type of people that patronize an establishment ultimately dictate it's success. If people feel unsafe or if there are reports of theft and vandalism, we know that the good patrons are not going to continue to want to shop there! We know that a vast majority of people do not want to deal with riffraff or feel uncomfortable while they are trying to purchase items!

Anyone can patronize an establishment, but it's the actions of said patrons which are the concern here. "we" refers to those persons who actually care about what happens to the place over time. I don't understand what your argument is here. We are both respectable, tax paying members of society with advanced degrees. We both enjoy the nice retail locations that Cincy has to offer. Why wouldn't we want to keep these places and things we enjoy looking nice? Why would we want them to fall to the same fate as other malls because people who are unlike us without any values don't care what happens to the place?!

If an officer sees exhibit A walking round this new location with his pants falling off his ankles, throwing up the middle finger to the sky, should he just simply go against his gut feeling and pay no mind? No, he's going to watch this guy like a hawk because generalizations and stereotypes dictate that he do so. Why should the assessment by you, or I or any citizen be any different than that of an officer? The odds are that said the person acting and looking like a trouble maker IS a trouble maker, and that they will cause problems.



What do you think the impact would be on the success of that retail location if we had a bunch of these types seen in the photo below running around causing problems? Is this now acceptable behavior? Are we not allowed to deem what is acceptable or what is not acceptable action or behavior because someone might be offended? When did we become the united states of wussification? Personally I find it rather off putting that someone would think that I or anyone else in similar position doesn't have enough street smarts and intelligence to be able to distinguish riffraff from non riffraff, and that tone of skin of the individual would have ANY impact whatsoever in said assessment.
I love ''he's going to watch this guy like a hawk because generalizations and stereotypes dictate that he do so''...that's great. Black folks walk into mall, not even dressed the way this loser is, and they will be watched like a hawk because generalizations and stereotypes dictate that security do so. Especially in the suburbs. Interesting.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:22 PM
 
1,556 posts, read 1,466,634 times
Reputation: 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProkNo5 View Post
I just really wish there was a good excuse to go up there. Living in Cincinnati, I have absolutely no incentive to visit Liberty Center. I'm really glad that Butler County has this place, but I still fear that Steiner has lost sight of their target demographic and has woefully over-invested. Who is going to support this place? Cincinnati has Kenwood, Dayton has the Green. I'm more likely to visit Monroe Outlets than this place.
There is a growing number of upper-middle class folks in Butler and Warren counties who have historically been underserved in this space. They've had limited shopping venues to spend their vast disposable income.

Last edited by flashes1; 10-23-2015 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:47 PM
 
1,046 posts, read 1,144,570 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish View Post
You are providing a good argument here, and you're making me think...

But let me digress for a minute...if you didn't know me, know that I am a 270-pound Army veteran, and I am nobody's 'wuss'...but again, I think you're going off the rails here, and I'll tell you why

Did the guy in the picture rub me the wrong way? You're dang right he did (melanin level notwithstanding LOL)...but as Briolat21 accurately pointed out upthread, my wife and I do our level best to AVOID folks like that should we encounter them in public...I'm not gonna let someone like that spoil what might be a pleasant evening...we avoid them, or I give them what my wife calls 'the PPL (paint-peeling look, as in melt paint from a wall)' and go on about my business

Have we gotten a little thin-skinned in America lately? I'd say yes---doesn't take much for some folk to get offended...but I take great care not to join in the chorus, because I'm gonna take care of myself and my wife, and not waste energy whining about something that's usually of little on no concern to us

The key is, NOT to let people like that deter you and yours from having a pleasant experience, no matter where that might be...I'm almost 60 now, and I had to learn to do things a little differently, yet still be myself...let the police and whatever security is present sort that out
I am trying but it's easier said than done. I commend you on your restraint and outlook on the matter, but I think it's also important to nip a potential problem before it starts, and Liberty Center seems to be doing that by setting the precedent with having the area heavily policed and security. Hopefully this level of security continues.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:27 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,793,194 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briolat21 View Post
I agree that the Dicks is a little bizarre. But, I don't know how much the "anchor" stores really are the draw at his other properties (I've never been to Easton). At the Greene, while I go to VonMauers, I don't think many other people necessarily do... or at least not the ones that are there at the movie theatres, or buying cheap jewelry at Charming Charlies, etc..

So, it may be a similar situation to that .. where people come more for the environment itself than any particular big chain. I do agree, Saks or something similar would have been nice.

I don't think there will be too much cannibalization of other restaurants, simply because there's not much right there. Tylersville is always packed, I don't think that'll change. Bridgewater is a bit away. Union center is also a bit away.

Union Center (streets of WC in particular) might take a bit of a hit -- simply because all it has is movies/dining, and Liberty Twp will provide a nice alternative.

As far as why it was built in Liberty Twp, not WC - apparently WC didn't want it. It had nothing to do with questionable infrastructure (?!?) or supposedly in-danger schools. WC doesn't want "retail". WC wants other businesses.

There was actually a very recent article about that. As far as its position along 75 - steiner said that too was deliberate, as he seems to envision the Dayton/Cinci markets merging along that corridor (as most of us up here in the Northern burbs also see happening). Deerfield is already quite built out, and along I-71, where competition with Kenwood would be that much more intense.

I'm really hoping this will be a success. I'm certainly looking forward to significantly more restaurant options, as well as some light shopping and a new up-to-date theatre.

That said, I may wait until January to go, as I don't really want to deal with "Its NEW!" crowds, and soon those will morph into "CHRISTMAS!" crowds... *shudder*
At Easton, people go more for the stores rather than entertainment, although they certainly go for both. American Girl, Nordstrom, etc. are the big draws.

Back in the day, we would go for The Cheesecake Factory - it was the only one close to Dayton prior to The Greene.


I'd agree the positioning isn't bad at all, we understand that as locals. But the household incomes are a lot higher on the eastern side of I-75 than the west, this is true from Brent Spence Bridge all the way to I-70, and retailers based in NYC and LA are going to be looking at median incomes in the 1,2,5 miles ranges more than anything in their decisions.


Looking at Steiner's own demographic report, they are cooking the books a lot to get the numbers to work out they way they want them to:
Steiner + Associates > Projects under Development > Liberty Center > Demographics

I say that because:
1. They are using average, not median household incomes (average gets skewed by the one guy with a net worth of $30 million living in a city where everyone else has a net worth of $500k or less, for instance).

2. They are using forecasted figures for 2019



The trade area circle they show includes almost all of Eastside Hamilton (avg house value is ~$35000), Forest Park/Springdale, and a large portion of Middletown (conveniently chopped off of their map, but still in the circle, including the infamously poor areas around the southside of Middletown like Amanda, Excello, and the Section 8 apartments around Briel). The sheer density is good for this development, but those households + a lot of <$200k West Chester houses aren't going to draw the top retailers.


Mason would have been a lot easier sell. Solid demographics, some true "wealth" around Indian Hill (the "wealth" that really draws retailers to Kenwood), and good interstate access if they would have bought out and demolished the Fields Ertel Home Depot and located behind it. Or re-tooled Deerfield Towne Center.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:34 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 3,793,194 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briolat21 View Post
As far as why it was built in Liberty Twp, not WC - apparently WC didn't want it. It had nothing to do with questionable infrastructure (?!?) or supposedly in-danger schools. WC doesn't want "retail". WC wants other businesses.
Also, about the questionable infrastructure comment / other reasons why I think West Chester is a bad bet - take a look at Tylersville Rd. in West Chester:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3612...7i13312!8i6656

Inadequately sized, flanked by nappy honeysuckle, no sidewalks.....


And Tylersville Rd. in Mason:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3423...7i13312!8i6656


Perfectly manicured boulevard with nice sidewalks and bike paths, city managed maintenance within right-of-way, etc.



And housing prices, schools, etc. reflect the dichotomy.

Mason is the safe bet.
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:12 PM
 
Location: In a happy place
3,707 posts, read 6,582,122 times
Reputation: 7332
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWOH View Post
Also, about the questionable infrastructure comment / other reasons why I think West Chester is a bad bet - take a look at Tylersville Rd. in West Chester:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3612...7i13312!8i6656

Inadequately sized, flanked by nappy honeysuckle, no sidewalks.....


And Tylersville Rd. in Mason:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3423...7i13312!8i6656


Perfectly manicured boulevard with nice sidewalks and bike paths, city managed maintenance within right-of-way, etc.



And housing prices, schools, etc. reflect the dichotomy.

Mason is the safe bet.
1. Liberty Center is in Liberty Township, not West Chester Township. (Cabella's is in West Chester Township.)

2. Liberty Center is less than 4 miles from the center of Mason. Your proposed location at Fields-Ertle is at least 5 miles from the same point in Mason.

3. Liberty Center is located on I-75, the second longest N/S interstate in the US, running from northern Michigan into Florida. It is very heavily travelled over it's entire route, and very much so at it's location centered between Dayton and Cincinnati. Vacationers travel this route and this area is one that is a good stopping/break/rest stop location for many of those travelers. I-71 runs from Cleveland to Louisville, not necessarily conducive to the overall volume of traffic as 75.

I do believe the developers carefully studied all these things.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:18 PM
 
1,046 posts, read 1,144,570 times
Reputation: 481
Dick's sporting goods was an interesting choice. They are on ave 20% more expensive than champs, foot locker, and Nike outlet for sports wear and shoes. I never buy anything from dicks. I would think that where they make there money is on sporting good equipment.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:04 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 10,229,734 times
Reputation: 6561
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmodder View Post
Dick's sporting goods was an interesting choice. They are on ave 20% more expensive than champs, foot locker, and Nike outlet for sports wear and shoes. I never buy anything from dicks. I would think that where they make there money is on sporting good equipment.
Not being into much athletic gear, I'm not really a patron.

However my husband has been over there and says its quite a store. Full complement of firearms, as well as other sporting equipment (kayaks, etc..).

So, not like the Dicks that were located in a stripmall 20 years ago where you'd go to grab a basketball and some warm up pants.

More like Cabelas or Bass-Pro than WalMart.

And with Cabelas across the street, the sporting enthusiast should have lots of nearby options.

Wondering if with the biblical deluge on its way for tomorrow/Wednesday, if tomorrow night would be a good night for me to go out there and look around... Maybe the rain (and it being a Tuesday) would make it relatively decent.
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