Streetcar skeptic to believer (Cleveland, Cincinnati: 2013, homes, university)

[WILWRadio]

You have to admit though that the amount of tax payer dollars that is being spent on this project is very impressive. And the apparent defective street cars is only compounding the problem and is going to lead to service problems.

[jmecklenborg]

There are at least 250 condo and apartment units u/c right now on the line (580 Walnut, new apts on Sycamore, scattered projects in OTR). But 700 will be u/c in OTR alone (not counting downtown) in 2017, so by 2019 it's reasonable to assume that we will have at least 2,000 more people living along the line by 2019.

Here are some photos of renovation and new construction projects along the line in OTR that I took back in October...

[WRnative]

The development along Cincinnati's streetcar line corridor noted in post 122 pales against the level of development which continues on Cleveland's Healthline bus rapid corridor, which offers a much more robust and apparently more reliable mass transit solution. Consider the cost of the 24/7 Healthline, with almost 20,000 daily riders, versus the much shorter and restrained capacity of the Cincinnati street car corridor.

<<
Other cities have had returns ranging from a $101.96 for every dollar spent on a bus system in Kansas City to 71 cents for every dollar for a light rail system in Denver. Another five cities had “nominal” impacts too weak to quantify.

Portland’s MAX Blue Line light rail generated more investment than Cleveland’s HealthLine – some $6.6 billion. But the steep cost of building light rail resulted in a return of only $3.74 on every transit dollar spent.

Therein was a key rationale for the research – dispelling the notion that light rail is necessarily the premier choice for urban transportation.>>

Has the development return on the Connector streetcar line yet broken $1.00?

Cleveland's HealthLine gives more development bang for the buck than other transit corridors, study finds | cleveland.com

http://www.riderta.com/healthline/about

One University Circle apartment tower, Cleveland's first such project in years, gets under way (photos) | cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/arts/index....f_art_fin.html

http://www.cleveland.com/architectur...es_provid.html

in the circle: is uptown development living up to expectations?

http://www.cincinnatibellconnector.c...s-of-operation

http://www.riderta.com/routes/health...edules/current

Developments along the Healthline corridor have attracted national interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/re...g-project.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/r...ring.html?_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/re.../08fourth.html

I suspect the Healthline buses also are much faster than the Connector streetcars, especially given the Healthline bus rapid's walk-on, walk-off design with a fare honor system, all designed to facilitate fast service.

The argument isn't about the benefit about a mass transit corridor, but about the efficiency and level of service offered by the respective mass transit solution. Based on what I've read, it appears Cincinnati would have received a much greater bang for the buck from building a bus rapid transit line instead of its streetcar line given the relatively high cost per mile, even more so per passenger mile, of the streetcar line versus a bus rapid solution.

Operations of the Connector streetcar line with its relatively small ridership and $1.00 fare likely also are more heavily subsidized versus Cleveland's Healthline bus rapid with its standard $2.50 fare, less for seniors and children.

The Healthline infrastructure investment also produced a bikeway artery, and Cleveland's RTA is extremely bike friendly.

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bike/euclid.html

http://www.riderta.com/racknroll#multi-section-tab1

Cleveland is increasingly focusing on bikeways as a transportation solution utilizing old streetcar rights of way, despite Cleveland's relatively challenging winter weather.

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/06/city_to_kick_off_planning_for.html

[WILWRadio]

WRNative. The bus line you mention sounds like the same kind of bus line that was developed in Pittsburgh between Carnegie and downtown and more recently in Hartford from New Britain to downtown. The Hartford bus line carries something like 15,000 riders a day which is making it a worthwhile taxpayer expense. I still think Cincinnati could have used the money they spent on the street car for improving existing bus lines and increasing ridership to help develop new lines.

[jmecklenborg]

The Health Line is 3x as long as the streetcar (6 miles versus 2 miles) so all things being equal it has 3X the opportunity for new construction. It has also been around for 10~ years whereas the streetcar is brand-new.


I rode the Health Line once while visiting in 2009. The reconstruction of Euclid Ave. with stations in the middle created a very ugly streetscape, the buses were loud, and the ride quality was wild because the buses changed lanes at high speed. It's not the same thing at all as Cincinnati's new streetcar, so there is no point in comparing them.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The Health Line is 3x as long as the streetcar (6 miles versus 2 miles) so all things being equal it has 3X the opportunity for new construction. It has also been around for 10~ years whereas the streetcar is brand-new.


I rode the Health Line once while visiting in 2009. The reconstruction of Euclid Ave. with stations in the middle created a very ugly streetscape, the buses were loud, and the ride quality was wild because the buses changed lanes at high speed. It's not the same thing at all as Cincinnati's new streetcar, so there is no point in comparing them.

Actually, the Healthline is 9.2 miles long, operating between Public Square and Windermere/Stokes rail rapid/bus station in East Cleveland, beyond Lake View Cemetery. The fact that the Healthline operates 24/7, is over four times as long with likely seven times the ridership, and had an actual cost similar to if not less than the Cincinnati Connector, certainly helps explain why its development impact per dollar spent is so great.

Your second paragraph seems ridiculous. I've never heard anybody complain about the ride quality or "high speed" lane changes. Nor do the buses seem loud to me. The ride is much quieter and smoother than NYC subways. As the bus seating is subway-style, with riders sitting against the sides of the buses, there certainly is less seat support against stop-and-go actions as on a typical bus.

The biggest complaints about the Cleveland Healthline bus rapid are that it isn't an underground subway and about the abuse of the fare honor system, even though security personnel do check for fare verification and levy fines for those without paid fare receipts.

The point is that the Healthline carries seven times the traffic as the Cincinnati streetcar and its actual cost likely was less than that of the streetcar line, excluding the cost of the infrastructure projects (road rebuilding, bike lane, pipeline replacements, new curbing, etc., that accompanied the building of the Healthline as part of the new Euclid Ave. corridor project). The Healthline also likely is much faster due to the ease of walk-on, walk-off boarding with easier accommodation of bike riders and the disabled. Finally, the buses can be re-routed when necessary, as for the security reasons during the Republican National Convention.

As far as development, as the linked article noted, the Healthline had seen over $114 of development for every dollar spent on the Healthline itself within five years of its opening, and certainly is far above that $114 number today. What is the new development/cost ratio for Cincinnati's streetcar line? Is it over $2 yet? Please read this article again carefully.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index..._gives_mo.html

Given the $2.50 fare on the Healthline, and ridership of 20,000/day, obviously the Healthline also generates substantial fare revenue towards its operation.

Downtown ridership on the Healthline is reduced by both the operation of the Red Line rail rapid between downtown and University Circle and by the operation of free downtown bus trolleys, certainly between Playhouse Square and Public Square, making the Healthline performance even more remarkable.

[jmecklenborg]

Sorry, your facts and awareness of physical reality are way-off.

The part of the Health Line with dedicated bus lanes is only 4 miles long. The rest is just traditional bus service with the Health Line rolling stock. Also, Cleveland has wider roads than Cincinnati does. Euclid Ave. is 70 feet wide between the curbs...the only (yes, the only) street in Cincinnati that is 70 feet wide for 4 miles is Spring Grove Ave (a mile of Clifton is wide, two miles of Central Parkway are wide, two miles of Gilbert are wide, and several miles of Madison are wide, but only 60 feet so good-bye all on-street parking). So where, exactly, should a Health Line-type of bus have been built in Cincinnati, if aside from Spring Grove, there is nowhere where one could have physically been built?

[Natural510]

jm, those are great pics. I'm glad they're utilizing architecture which fits into the neighborhood rather than modern architecture which could quickly turn an eyesore.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Natural510

jm, those are great pics. I'm glad they're utilizing architecture which fits into the neighborhood rather than modern architecture which could quickly turn an eyesore.

The entire Connector area is controlled by the Historic Conservation Board which has very strict guidelines.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The entire Connector area is controlled by the Historic Conservation Board which has very strict guidelines.

Over-the-Rhine is actually less strict with existing buildings than many historic areas around the country. For example you can pretty much gut a building, paint unpainted brick any color you want, and so on. You can also build suburban-type attached garages on empty lots, which a few people have done in recent years, especially on Republic St., where lots were selling for $5,000 during the recession. But now the value of the lots is too high and we probably won't see many more $100k empty lots given over to 2-car garages.

Also the city did approve parking changes in the streetcar zone which will enable small and large projects to be built with less parking than was previously possible. It has already paid off with the big apartment project that will break ground soon at Elm & Liberty. Originally they were going to build a garage but now they're just going to do a surface lot behind an L-shaped footprint.