Streetcar skeptic to believer (Cincinnati, Findlay: taxes, restaurants, bars)

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Wrong again. See the last paragraph of my post 132, repeated above.

Was there a study that concluded that walk-on, walk-off platforms couldn't have been built from existing Cincinnati sidewalks, as such platforms are used extensively on the Healthline route? If not, then you're

Are you aware that the streetcars are all low-platform and have level boarding at all stations? Our streetcar system along with the system in Kansas City are the first streetcar systems with all low-floor designs in the United States. CAF was able to do this by keeping almost all of the mechanics either in the wheel bogies or putting them on the roof. It's a vast improvement over the Skoda streetcars in Portland, OR.


Also, apparently none of you are aware of the existence of Metro Plus, which is a limited-stop Health Line type service from Downtown to UC to Kenwood. This thing has been in place for several years: Schedule Detail - Go Metro We have heard no streetcar haters calling for improved Metro Plus service because they don't know about it because they don't actually pay any attention to public transportation. They just hate the streetcar because Bill Cunningham told them to.


Fact is that people who don't listen to talk radio like the streetcar and they prefer it to buses traveling the exact same route. Stand at the Rhinegeist Brewery station on a Friday or Saturday night around 10pm and watch people eagerly await the streetcar while bus after bus that travels a similar route is ignored. People prefer rail. Period.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Are you aware that the streetcars are all low-platform and have level boarding at all stations? Our streetcar system along with the system in Kansas City are the first streetcar systems with all low-floor designs in the United States. CAF was able to do this by keeping almost all of the mechanics either in the wheel bogies or putting them on the roof. It's a vast improvement over the Skoda streetcars in Portland, OR.


Also, apparently none of you are aware of the existence of Metro Plus, which is a limited-stop Health Line type service from Downtown to UC to Kenwood. This thing has been in place for several years: Schedule Detail - Go Metro We have heard no streetcar haters calling for improved Metro Plus service because they don't know about it because they don't actually pay any attention to public transportation. They just hate the streetcar because Bill Cunningham told them to.


Fact is that people who don't listen to talk radio like the streetcar and they prefer it to buses traveling the exact same route. Stand at the Rhinegeist Brewery station on a Friday or Saturday night around 10pm and watch people eagerly await the streetcar while bus after bus that travels a similar route is ignored. People prefer rail. Period.

Good points, but my very first observation still stands. This was relatively a very expensive mass transit project given the number of riders serviced.

[Wilson513]

I hardly know where to start.

Talk radio has nothing to do with ridership of a streetcar system. If it is an attractive entertainment venue, which it is, people will ride it. There is no one who is having a brew at the Rhinegeist who goes outside and says" I'm not getting on that thing because some radio host thinks it was a wasteful municipal project."

And, who could possibly care where the streetcar puts its compressors or its hydraulic pumps.

[WILWRadio]

There is a valid reason Street Car transit in this country was replaced by busses and light or heavy rail. Trolley's are very dated and are not all that cost effective to run and develop. The inflexibility of such a system prevents contraction and expansion of lines to accommodate shifts in population i.e. commercial or industrial development which eventually can lead to mass transit if enough users exist in the newly developed areas.

I have to wonder if at some point some areas along the rail line will see a decline in population or business growth which results in lower ridership numbers in certain stretches of the lines? That is where busses have a clear advantage.

[jmecklenborg]

Went on a walk this past weekend...even more stuff being renovated along the north part of the streetcar route, well beyond the reach of 3CDC or the really big money. These are buildings that face Race St. directly across from Findlay Market and you're seeing the backs that face the Findlay Playground.

[Wilson513]

The is far more development going on away from the Connector track than around it in OTR and Pendleton.

[unusualfire]

^ Really? It's suppose to help the entire area not just Vine St.

[Wilson513]

I'm not complaining. Just observing. Pendleton is not served by the Connector in any way and it has been roaring. I think Washington Park is fueling the development photos above. Washington Park is a substantial public improvement. The park venue, garage, the removal of the the addicted and unwashed homeless encampment, etc.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Fact is that people who don't listen to talk radio like the streetcar and they prefer it to buses traveling the exact same route. Stand at the Rhinegeist Brewery station on a Friday or Saturday night around 10pm and watch people eagerly await the streetcar while bus after bus that travels a similar route is ignored. People prefer rail. Period.

I did want to comment on this point.

Several posters have said that the streetcar is more entertainment than a mass transit solution.

Their point is that many riders are using the streetcar because of its novelty.

If Cincinnati offered slow stagecoaches along this route for $1 a ride, I don't doubt that many persons would use them over the streetcars, at least until their novelty waned. BTW, what is the cost of riding the buses that compete with the streetcar line? If more than the cost of riding the streetcar line, what's the surprise that the streetcar would be more preferred? What happens to streetcar usage if the fares are raised in the future in attempt to reduce the subsidies? A family of four might ride the streetcar for $4, but think twice about a second ride if the fare were to be raised to $10 (for a family of four), the current one-way fare (ignoring children/senior fares, passes, etc.) on Cleveland's Healthline bus rapid?

Most mass transit users want the most bang for the buck. Buses deliver on this point, especially walk-on, walk-off, articulated buses on heavily traveled routes. Obviously, Cleveland's Healthline and other bus rapids are heavily used.

If walk-on, walk-off buses truly are physically impossible on Cincinnati's streetcar route, as you argue (and in the absence of an expert opinion I'm doubtful of that claim), a reliable bus service would be used IF the demand is there.

The problem with an expensive mass transit solution is that resources are diverted from other uses, often including deserving bus routes if funded by mass transit dollars. That has been a bone of contention with Cleveland's RTA system, where communities served by regular bus routes often have felt short-changed compared to areas served by the rail, and now bus, rapid lines.

Certainly, the funds used to build the streetcar and the ongoing subsidies of the streetcar line, precluded the use of the funds elsewhere, very possibly on regular bus routes offering better cost/benefit ratios, or even from point-to-point service which is so beneficial to the elderly and disabled. The diversion of funds to support the streetcar line is even more subject to scrutiny if the funds are diverted from Cincinnati's general and other funds, perhaps from uses such as the safety forces, parks, etc.

[Wilson513]

Point of clarification. The Connector does not compete with any bus route. You can't follow the route with a bus. Even a combination of buses. The reason for this is that the Connector route is not an actual human travel path that anyone much needs. The transportation needs along the Connector line could have been solved with two Sprinter Airport type shuttles.

The Connector is a tourist attraction, mostly.