U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-11-2012, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920

Advertisements

Ohioan58...

I agree with your assessment. I was surprised to learn that a 15% failure rate is considered reasonable and normal. So, what if you get one of the 15% off the internet? You are not only facing the cost of the HVAC installer you engaged, it was not their fault the equipment is defective, but also the cost of returning the equipment - hope you kept the original crates, etc. Add to that your original system has already been removed and how long will it be to get a replacement? If it is just a furnace, hope you did that in the summer time. And by rights, you owe your HVAC installer for de-installing the defective unit and then again for installing another one, which unless you read the fine print very well in the online purchase you will likely have to pay shipping costs again to get the replacement. By this time, anything you saved is totally out of the window.

People who are very knowledgable in the equipment and can do the installation themselves (few and far between) may come out well on internet purchases of HVAC. First of all they will be smart enough to recognize the failure rate is relatively high, and determine in the purchase agreement they are not responsible for return shipping costs, shipping of a replacement, etc. But then there may be a delay by the seller demanding to send out a third party to validate their diagnosis of failure is correct.

Yes, credible HVAC contractors do make money on the markup of the equipment they sell. But they also take risks. I can pretty well guarantee you they eat the labor cost if defective equipment shows up and they have to install a replacement. They may get the replacement at no cost, but the labor cost to remove the original and install the replacement is on their dollar. They simply have to decide whether the frequency of this is something they can absorb or not. It is simply is this a business practice good for us overall or not.

The days when US automotive dealers existed on warranty work paid for my the manufacturer are done. Sell the car at a minor profit, then make up for it with the warranty work we charged back through our service organization. I don't think you see much of that going on today.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-11-2012, 02:34 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,226,886 times
Reputation: 894
The short version is, modern HVAC units (especially the high efficiency stuff which operates at extremely high pressures) are complex and some are DOA. An HVAC contractor works directly with a distributor who is local, and a DOA unit can simply be loaded back onto his truck and taken back to the distributor. For a "civilian" this process is DIY and is long distance involving freight.

This set of working relationships is exactly what one is paying for when you use a local contractor as a sole source rather than try to save some money by buying a cheaper unit online. That is basically the conclusion I arrived at when we had our heat pump installed. The heating guy had to handle two unit returns.

Re: self installation - unless you are licensed to handle refrigerants, I am not certain that this is really even legal.

I myself have shopped online and on Ebay for an AC and heat pump unit for a particular need - a split system for an addition to our house that is impractical to run heat ducts to from the main house. In fact my contractor encouraged it because he and his jobber didn't carry anything like this. But any returns or problems would be "on me".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2012, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920
Ohioan58...

Some people may need a description of a split sytem. It is basically where you install a heat exhanger and blower on the inside of an exterior wall. The exterior unit is outside and just connected by refrigerant piping. There is not ductwork. The inside unit exhausts directly into the room. This could be good for such as a large family room addition to a single floor house, etc. One manufacturer, Mitsubishi Electric advertises smaller systems they claim are single room oriented. Obviously this can involve multiple units for multiple rooms. But they claim the efficiency and lack of interconnecting duckwork and loss of efficiency can make it an economical installation, Frankly, I am skeptical since the labor to install each of the separate units I would think is significant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,226,886 times
Reputation: 894
^ Yeah, that's exactly why I focused on that type of system. It would be a desperation move (expensive for the BTUs to be had.) Right now I use a portable A/C in the space.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2012, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by dankspeed View Post
My wife and I are about to buy a 1200SQ FT house in blue ash that will be needing a new furnace very soon. The current one is original to the house and needs to go. I realize prices vary based on size,model, and company but i wanted to get an idea of what we can expect to spend and also what others are using and are happy with.
Thanks
Dan
I realize you already have a number of replies, including my own. A 1200SQ FT house does not require an overly large furnace. You did not indicate the style of house, home with basement, single floor ranch on a slab or crawl-space. Where is location of current furnace and type of ducting? All of this will factor into the labor cost involved. An attic furnace installation is probably the most difficult to remove and re-install, as the original was likely installed before they put the roof on and now everything has to be taken out and put back in through an access panel. For a ranch on a slab or crawl space, the typical closet like housing of the furnace is also a pain-in-the-ass to deal with. A typical basement installation is duck soup. You yank out the old furnace, maybe make a few adjustment strips for the plenum chamber and install the new one. Furnace alone, out and in by two men in less than a day.

Again, if the house does not have A/C, definitely consider a heat pump. You did not mention whether you are native to Cincinnati or not, but I consider my A/C in the summer more vital to my well-being than the heat in the winter. You can pile on clothes and blankets in the winter, but once you are nude and still sweating in bed in the summer there is no escape.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2012, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920
Oh, and I forgot to mention again, definitely consider the tax credit for energy efficiency. I believe it is 30% on the installed cost up to a maximum of $1,500. For example, if you get a quote of $3,000 for an 80% efficient furnace (does not qualify) and a quote of $4,500 for a high efficiency heat pump, the heat pump would qualify for a tax rebate of .30X4500 or $1,500, making it no more expensive to you than the furnace and much better operating cost in the long run. And if you decided on a high efficiency model, be sure and get a manufacturer's statement from the contractor the unit qualifies. Remember, a tax rebate is a straight off the top reduction in federal income taxes and is not affected by any other considerations such as itemized or standard deduction, etc.

Heat pumps and central A/C units have improved greatly in recent years in regard to operating efficiency. Much of this has to do with the use of scroll-type compressors compared to the old piston type. The company I worked for had some machines specifically designed to machine the scrolls for scroll-type compressors. The machinery was expensive, but the resulting product was superior. One of the spurring conditions was the outlawing of the refrigerant freon due to its environment impact. The most common replacement puron requires much higher pressures and transfer volumes to be successful. The scroll-compressor is akin to comparing a modern jet to the old style piston engine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2013, 07:39 AM
 
1 posts, read 1,373 times
Reputation: 11
Default If you are still out there

Quote:
Originally Posted by gman5431 View Post
If anyone needs a furnace replaced, i know a guy who is a class act and will give you a fair deal. Got a new 95% efficient installed for $2200. Already seeing saving on the gas bills and along with the tax rebate ill make the money back in two years.

G Man
If you have the guys number and name still please send me a message thanks
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2014, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Blue Ash OH
150 posts, read 118,819 times
Reputation: 101
Help, dankspeed and others:
I bought a 1200 sq ft house in Blue Ash last Fall and now know how that the furnace was made in 1972!
Obviously I need and want good advice on its replacement: cost and contractor, etc.
Dan (especially) can you contact me to compare situations?
Thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2014, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgs2000 View Post
Help, dankspeed and others:
I bought a 1200 sq ft house in Blue Ash last Fall and now know how that the furnace was made in 1972!
Obviously I need and want good advice on its replacement: cost and contractor, etc.
Dan (especially) can you contact me to compare situations?
Thanks.
But remember, a lower efficiency furnance will deliver the heat required. It will just require an incremental higher amount to operate. Also, are you replacing just a furnace or a furnace and A.C. A 1200 sq ft house should easily be supplied by a heat pump. Then you get heat plus A/C. I advise you very strongly to look into that. I have separate units but spend more on A/C in Cincinnati than heat. A heat pump might give you pure luxury.

Yes a standard heat pump has electric coil backup heat, a toaster if you will. This can run into some epense in cold weather. But you have control of it by where you set the thermostat. Just get the blankets out and spread them on the bed.

Last edited by kjbrill; 06-23-2014 at 07:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2014, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 13,395,175 times
Reputation: 1920
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrill View Post
But remember, a lower efficiency furnance will deliver the heat required. It will just require an incremental higher amount to operate. Also, are you replacing just a furnace or a furnace and A.C. A 1200 sq ft house should easily be supplied by a heat pump. Then you get heat plus A/C. I advise you very strongly to look into that. I have separate units but spend more on A/C in Cincinnati than heat. A heat pump might give you pure luxury.

Yes a standard heat pump has electric coil backup heat, a toaster if you will. This can run into some epense in cold weather. But you have control of it by where you set the thermostat. Just get the blankets out and spread them on the bed.
The price of a new furnance install varies considerably. But I would definitely compare it to the price of a heat pump. A heat pump gives you A/C in addition to heat. In our climate I consider that a very big plus. And it should also be a significant factor in the resale value of your house. There is no significant difference in the installation of a heat pump versus a furnace.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
Similar Threads
View detailed profiles of:
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top