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Old 01-04-2009, 07:03 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 3,949,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstn View Post
Meaning ....

how is it different?

or

what has made the city change?

Sorry, didn't know which direction this question was intended.
in a word...both.
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:18 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 3,949,832 times
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pretty much, if you were in District 2 and not along the Madison corridor, you were relatively isolated from homicide. surprising to see northside w/o a murder; ditto for campus.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA
4,730 posts, read 10,992,832 times
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The city hasn't changed all that much in the past decade, but it's a far different place than the one I was born in and that I lived close to until the end of the '70s. And people from the generation before mine used to bemoan how things had turned for the worse from times they remembered. But that's partly human nature: sometimes everything was better "back in the day" when maybe it really wasn't. Even so...
Cincinnati's last major growth period lasted until the post-WWII baby boom numbers began to drop. Drive along any major street extending from downtown, and once you get past the older core neighborhoods such as Walnut Hills what do you see? Block after block of two-story, four-unit "brick box" apartment buildings. Newlyweds, singles starting out on their own, and young families filled up those brick boxes during the '40s and '50s. They often had to go on waiting lists to get into one. Then when their offspring were ready to start lives if not families of their own, a brick box wasn't for them. The kids flocked to newly built complexes like Hawaiian Terrace and Williamsburg of Cincinnati, where you could have a whole townhouse to yourself instead of neighbors upstairs or downstairs. But in both instances, that was then and this is now. Brick-box living began to fall out of favor by the '80s and the big complexes started to fade not long after that. All over town, the boxes in particular began emptying out and their landlords often resorted to allowing rent-assistance vouchers like Section 8 in order to keep bodies in the buildings. While it'd be a lie to say that even the majority of low-income or working-poor folks are prone to being involved in crime, no one can deny that the quality of life in communities from Price Hill all the way around to Pleasant Ridge ain't what it used to be. Many places that once sheltered carousing yet-to-be-married young career people are now crack houses instead. Some entire complexes (like on McHenry and Harrison) are boarded up and condemned. Tastes changed, those who could afford to follow trends did, and their successors were lower in number as well as income. And with the decline of the complexes and brick boxes came a ripple effect into the surrounding streets, where homeowners fearful of a real or perceived increase in danger sold at a loss. Either that, or they moved away and started accepting rental vouchers for their own property, and so it goes and so it goes.
The ongoing "urban removal" in OTR and the West End isn't spurring as much of a positive turnaround in those communities as it is accelerating a negative one in the areas its displaced residents are fleeing to. Every city dweller knows that if you have a cockroach problem, turning on the lights will only send the critters scurrying into the next room or the adjoining unit. The two-man burglary team that was busted the other day after cleaning out at least six Westwood houses probably had never been in the neighborhood before the turn of the century, but one was said to have an address there. What's unfortunate is that there's too much prejudice and resentment on all sides to make neighborhood stabilization and poverty reduction a reality to any major extent. "Blockbusting" such as that which caused so much lasting damage in parts of town like Bond Hill may be against the law now. But people can still see transition in the works and are still all too ready to beat feet in advance of or in the wake of it.
So yes, Cincinnati today is not Goyguy's childhood Cincinnati which consisted in part of German-American Price Hill and Appalachian Hartwell and WASPy Pleasant Ridge and Jewish Roselawn. But there was an artificial exclusivity to those sections of the city that was governed by "street law" for some time after official discrimination practices were wiped off the books. Accessibility to formerly off-limits places doesn't have to result in their "death spiral." I think that eventually more neighborhoods will "bounce back" or stay OK than not. Who knows, the next cool thing may be to rent a picture-windowed one-bedroom in a brick box from 1948 - stranger things have happened.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Shaker Heights, OH
236 posts, read 604,049 times
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Cincinnati rocks
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:15 AM
 
1,071 posts, read 3,949,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goyguy View Post
The city hasn't changed all that much in the past decade, but it's a far different place than the one I was born in and that I lived close to until the end of the '70s. And people from the generation before mine used to bemoan how things had turned for the worse from times they remembered. But that's partly human nature: sometimes everything was better "back in the day" when maybe it really wasn't. Even so...
Cincinnati's last major growth period lasted until the post-WWII baby boom numbers began to drop. Drive along any major street extending from downtown, and once you get past the older core neighborhoods such as Walnut Hills what do you see? Block after block of two-story, four-unit "brick box" apartment buildings. Newlyweds, singles starting out on their own, and young families filled up those brick boxes during the '40s and '50s. They often had to go on waiting lists to get into one. Then when their offspring were ready to start lives if not families of their own, a brick box wasn't for them. The kids flocked to newly built complexes like Hawaiian Terrace and Williamsburg of Cincinnati, where you could have a whole townhouse to yourself instead of neighbors upstairs or downstairs. But in both instances, that was then and this is now. Brick-box living began to fall out of favor by the '80s and the big complexes started to fade not long after that. All over town, the boxes in particular began emptying out and their landlords often resorted to allowing rent-assistance vouchers like Section 8 in order to keep bodies in the buildings. While it'd be a lie to say that even the majority of low-income or working-poor folks are prone to being involved in crime, no one can deny that the quality of life in communities from Price Hill all the way around to Pleasant Ridge ain't what it used to be. Many places that once sheltered carousing yet-to-be-married young career people are now crack houses instead. Some entire complexes (like on McHenry and Harrison) are boarded up and condemned. Tastes changed, those who could afford to follow trends did, and their successors were lower in number as well as income. And with the decline of the complexes and brick boxes came a ripple effect into the surrounding streets, where homeowners fearful of a real or perceived increase in danger sold at a loss. Either that, or they moved away and started accepting rental vouchers for their own property, and so it goes and so it goes.
The ongoing "urban removal" in OTR and the West End isn't spurring as much of a positive turnaround in those communities as it is accelerating a negative one in the areas its displaced residents are fleeing to. Every city dweller knows that if you have a cockroach problem, turning on the lights will only send the critters scurrying into the next room or the adjoining unit. The two-man burglary team that was busted the other day after cleaning out at least six Westwood houses probably had never been in the neighborhood before the turn of the century, but one was said to have an address there. What's unfortunate is that there's too much prejudice and resentment on all sides to make neighborhood stabilization and poverty reduction a reality to any major extent. "Blockbusting" such as that which caused so much lasting damage in parts of town like Bond Hill may be against the law now. But people can still see transition in the works and are still all too ready to beat feet in advance of or in the wake of it.
So yes, Cincinnati today is not Goyguy's childhood Cincinnati which consisted in part of German-American Price Hill and Appalachian Hartwell and WASPy Pleasant Ridge and Jewish Roselawn. But there was an artificial exclusivity to those sections of the city that was governed by "street law" for some time after official discrimination practices were wiped off the books. Accessibility to formerly off-limits places doesn't have to result in their "death spiral." I think that eventually more neighborhoods will "bounce back" or stay OK than not. Who knows, the next cool thing may be to rent a picture-windowed one-bedroom in a brick box from 1948 - stranger things have happened.
Excellent post. A lot of the Cincinnati efficiencies date back to pre-war as well. I grew up in a pre-war box in Bond Hill, and it was a terrible building. I feel it goes unnoticed/ unsaid how shoddy and poor some of the dwellings are in our "newer" neighborhoods, such as Bond Hill, Westwood, inner-ring burbs and several others you touched on. Outside, yeah, you're out of Over the Rhine. But inside, boy this place is small and HOT. Boilers running 24/7, 365, for 80 years might do that, I suppose, but what was supposed to be a comfortable transition from the ills of the congested slums bred a new type of slum, a far more sustainable slum, called the suburb. The walkup I lived in down in Northside was rough, but the building had wealth and some feeling of empowerment, knowing you lived in a building that at least was a good idea at the time. FDR legislation and postwar mandates never made sense IMO. If you plan on moving people from core identified areas, why not extend the core, instead of stretching the line. More land, more expense. More expense, more excess which thins future budgets, etc you can see where this is going...When Bond Hill, and later, Westwood, deteriorates so much that it officially is No Man's Land, whatever developers and politicians decide to make plans for the area, they will have no choice but to demolish huge swaths of the respective neighborhoods. The buildings aren't historic enough to want to preserve in a city as old as Cincinnati, and they weren't built to last as it is.

Folks, listen to Goyguy. Anybody that still remembers Jewish (still is in a way) Roselawn, Price Hill pre-dumping ground, and Walnut Hills when it was just Walnut Hills deserves a little face time .

Goyguy, let me ask you, do you remember when Peebles Corner used to mean something in this town? 8th and State? When Queensgate used to have people? It's sad...
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Deer Park, OH
246 posts, read 885,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillside View Post
Folks, listen to Goyguy. Anybody that still remembers Jewish (still is in a way) Roselawn, Price Hill pre-dumping ground, and Walnut Hills when it was just Walnut Hills deserves a little face time
Man, ditto to that. I'm always astounded by how much goyguy knows about Cincinnati history -- real, nitty-gritty history about how things are/were day-to-day in various parts of town-- and how well he writes about it. . . .

"Price Hill pre-dumping ground." That's my old neighborhood. The looks I get from people when I tell them I grew up on the corner of 8th and Elberon. Bah.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:11 PM
 
13,767 posts, read 22,996,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goyguy View Post
Newlyweds, singles starting out on their own, and young families filled up those brick boxes during the '40s and '50s. They often had to go on waiting lists to get into one. Then when their offspring were ready to start lives if not families of their own, a brick box wasn't for them. The kids flocked to newly built complexes like Hawaiian Terrace and Williamsburg of Cincinnati, where you could have a whole townhouse to yourself instead of neighbors upstairs or downstairs. But in both instances, that was then and this is now. Brick-box living began to fall out of favor by the '80s and the big complexes started to fade not long after that. .
I would say that 80% of my fellow classmates who were born and raised in the eastern side neighborhoods all purchased "brick boxes" out of high school and college - but the brick boxes were in Northern KY, Anderson, and Clermont County. (And they used to laugh that I lived in the "bookdocks" in Anderson Township.)

In the 40s and 50s, you started off in a tiny house and as your income progressed, you moved to a progressively bigger place. Since the "easy credit" of the 90s, younger people are buying houses that their parents would not have been able to afford until their 40s.

I think that your analysis is pretty much on target.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:18 PM
 
13,767 posts, read 22,996,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 4520832257 View Post
However, even a cursory look at the demographic trends shows an interesting pattern. Inner-city areas that (I'm told) used to be sh*tholes are going through some serious improvement. Areas like OTR, West End, East End, Mt Auburn are all supposedly much better than they have been in the recent past. The criminal element had to go somewhere - and I'm assuming that areas like Price Hill, Avondale, Evanston, and others have all been the recipients.
.
Many years ago, I picked up a copy of the 1930s era Federal Writers Project book on Cincinnati. For those that are unaware of what I am talking about, FDR established an arts project in the 1930s to keep artists employed. One of the goals of the Wirter's Project was to document the variuos cities and states.

If you go back to this book from the 1930s, you will find that there are many "bad" areas during that period and that many of them correspond to the current situation. If you are interested in the history of the city, it is a blast to read.

As for the "death spiral", I not as optimistic as others. There always seems to be a lot of Cincinnatians in denial about the problems of the city and at times, painfully little action to resolve problems.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:50 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 3,949,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
Many years ago, I picked up a copy of the 1930s era Federal Writers Project book on Cincinnati. For those that are unaware of what I am talking about, FDR established an arts project in the 1930s to keep artists employed. One of the goals of the Wirter's Project was to document the variuos cities and states.

If you go back to this book from the 1930s, you will find that there are many "bad" areas during that period and that many of them correspond to the current situation. If you are interested in the history of the city, it is a blast to read.

As for the "death spiral", I not as optimistic as others. There always seems to be a lot of Cincinnatians in denial about the problems of the city and at times, painfully little action to resolve problems.
Most definitely, the history of Cincinnati will tell you of the ills that have, and will not go away based on the fact that they have not. those ills would pertain to extreme cronyism, institutional corruption intertwined carefully between campaign politics and law enforcement, the encouragement of confined squalor, etc Some might be surprised to hear that Cincinnati's homicide rate from 1870-WWII was consistently with St. Louis and New Orleans as the established cities with the highest rates of murder in the entire nation. During the Roaring Twenties, for which Al Capone's Chicago is famous for blood, Cincinnati had a higher rate almost every year. There's a reason the city looks the way it does.

Prior to the 1970's, Cincinnati had a reputation for Jim Crow, slums, violence and stagnation. You could say the city still has all of those terms attached to it, but shouldn't we thank Cleveland for taking a lot of the heat off the last 40 years?
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:18 PM
 
2,204 posts, read 5,861,550 times
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Hillside, how do you feel about this article?:

Cincinnati closes the book on 2001 race riots - Nation - Wire - Kentucky.com (http://www.kentucky.com/513/story/642217.html - broken link)
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