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Old 11-16-2010, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Blue Ash, Ohio (Cincinnati)
2,785 posts, read 6,603,165 times
Reputation: 705

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The conservative mindset in Cincy will kill that city in the future. I look forward to the young population that is moving into the city that is actually changing it. I am not just talking about the streetcar. OTR, downtown, the Banks, etc. Maybe sometime the conservatives will see the light... some day.

Btw, Charlotte's system is extremely successful. I brought up the city because I travel there and I talked to the natives and people who work for the city, and have said it has done nothing but wonders for the city. Getting out and traveling really opens your mind to new things. Cincy natives should do more traveling, don't you think?

 
Old 11-16-2010, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,837 posts, read 14,024,084 times
Reputation: 16498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise View Post
^ Honestly, I've never met anyone that thought motor/oil/tire companies didn't have a hand in monopolizing the transportation system? If I'm not mistaken the U.S. Justice Department fined GM for "Commercial Conspiracy" ... or something like that because of them controlling National City Lines?

Jetgraphics, can you post a link for us? ...

This blows my mind ... It's like certain Islamic groups believing the Holocaust never happened. Wow.
I am not the one disputing the conspiracy to destroy streetcars.
More info here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/16629980-post265.html

The issue facing all Americans is the necessity to transition away from the automobile / petroleum / paved road as the dominant form for land transportation. It's too expensive, consumes too much land, resources, and results in unpleasant consequences like air pollution. Even if we replaced the majority with electric cars, we'd still be wasting resources - for paved roads, the infrastructure, and for the vehicles themselves. It is a huge waste of energy to transport one person wrapped in thousands of pounds of metal.

Scaling back automobiles from the current 843 per thousand (USA) to 10% of that number will require replacement transportation - which leaves us with only one viable alternative - electric powered railroads.
 
Old 11-16-2010, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Blue Ash, Ohio (Cincinnati)
2,785 posts, read 6,603,165 times
Reputation: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I am not the one disputing the conspiracy to destroy streetcars.
More info here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/16629980-post265.html

The issue facing all Americans is the necessity to transition away from the automobile / petroleum / paved road as the dominant form for land transportation. It's too expensive, consumes too much land, resources, and results in unpleasant consequences like air pollution. Even if we replaced the majority with electric cars, we'd still be wasting resources - for paved roads, the infrastructure, and for the vehicles themselves. It is a huge waste of energy to transport one person wrapped in thousands of pounds of metal.

Scaling back automobiles from the current 843 per thousand (USA) to 10% of that number will require replacement transportation - which leaves us with only one viable alternative - electric powered railroads.
I agree about the roads. Kasich wants to continue to invest in Ohio's roads. Which don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with. But why not go forth with the 3C? The studies we have paid millions for just came out saying how the corridor will be a success, and will create jobs, investment, and will move Ohio out of its 2 to 3 long decade drought of no rail.

Kasich honestly thinks he can take the $400 million and put it towards roads...
 
Old 11-16-2010, 11:32 PM
 
112 posts, read 151,721 times
Reputation: 116
You're right Beavercreek33, but the conservatism within the city limits isn't nearly as pervasive as it is in the rest of Hamilton County or the rest of the metro area. This is a big reason why Metro Moves back in 2002 failed so spectacularly, because it was a Hamilton County-wide vote. I think it came close to passing among city voters, but was overwhelmingly shot down by the rest of the county.

The real trouble, even with a majority of progressive residents in the city itself, is the entrenched conservative institutions and special interests. The smallest minority of the population is also the most wealthy, vocal, and powerful. Even if the status quo hasn't worked for everyone else, it has worked for them. Thus they're going to vehemently oppose anything that represents even the slightest threat to their positions, and they have the power and the resources to do it.

I do have hope however. There's no rallying cry from anyone with any real power to kill the streetcar project like Kasich is trying to do with 3-C passenger rail. The smart thing after Metro Moves was defeated was to say screw the County and just do something within the city. Yes it's still an uphill battle, but it's not trying to climb Mt. Everest either. We have a number of future-thinking people on the City Council, from Mayor Mallory to Roxanne Qualls, Chris Bortz, and Laurie Quinlavin who are supporting this and other projects to improve the city. They haven't all succeeded, but they're at least DOING something, and getting some projects going. The old guard of entrenched conservatives are still firmly in place, but I think they see the writing on the wall and at this point are trying in vain to stay on the top, but I really don't think they'll succeed for much longer.
 
Old 11-16-2010, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Blue Ash, Ohio (Cincinnati)
2,785 posts, read 6,603,165 times
Reputation: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjakucyk View Post
You're right Beavercreek33, but the conservatism within the city limits isn't nearly as pervasive as it is in the rest of Hamilton County or the rest of the metro area. This is a big reason why Metro Moves back in 2002 failed so spectacularly, because it was a Hamilton County-wide vote. I think it came close to passing among city voters, but was overwhelmingly shot down by the rest of the county.

The real trouble, even with a majority of progressive residents in the city itself, is the entrenched conservative institutions and special interests. The smallest minority of the population is also the most wealthy, vocal, and powerful. Even if the status quo hasn't worked for everyone else, it has worked for them. Thus they're going to vehemently oppose anything that represents even the slightest threat to their positions, and they have the power and the resources to do it.

I do have hope however. There's no rallying cry from anyone with any real power to kill the streetcar project like Kasich is trying to do with 3-C passenger rail. The smart thing after Metro Moves was defeated was to say screw the County and just do something within the city. Yes it's still an uphill battle, but it's not trying to climb Mt. Everest either. We have a number of future-thinking people on the City Council, from Mayor Mallory to Roxanne Qualls, Chris Bortz, and Laurie Quinlavin who are supporting this and other projects to improve the city. They haven't all succeeded, but they're at least DOING something, and getting some projects going. The old guard of entrenched conservatives are still firmly in place, but I think they see the writing on the wall and at this point are trying in vain to stay on the top, but I really don't think they'll succeed for much longer.
Great post! Cincy-Rise was telling me about Issue 9 which I had forgot about. Hope is not lost in the city, yet. Mayor Mallory is a great mayor in my opinion. And there is still a lot of people trying to get the 3C going, which I hope still happens. In fact Xavier students were recently in favor of the project.

I noticed you are a new member. Welcome to the forum!
 
Old 11-16-2010, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,837 posts, read 14,024,084 times
Reputation: 16498
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
  1. The conspiracy theory is just silly.
  2. Its like "911 was an inside job."
  3. The coincidence of GM's aggressive competition with hedging their bets with vertical integration has all of these nuts' panties in a bunch.
  4. Trains are pre-WW2 technology.
  5. Diesel buses were 40's and 50's technology, still useful but not desired today.
  6. Private cars is what we American want and what we have.
  7. People have cars because they want them, not because they don't have a train nearby.
  8. And, we have the resources to have what we want.
  9. If people wanted trains they wouldn't require a subsidy from the taxpayers of $10-20 per trip to make it work.
  10. GM would be all over it today.
  11. But, no one but some noisy misguided tree huggers want trains.
  12. Too bad. We aren't squandering any more taxpayer money on trains.
  13. So ride a bike if you don't like cars. Boo hoo.
1. Facts must make you laugh.
2. No one disputes that GM, et al, conspired to gain a monopoly on mass transit, displace the streetcars, and used unethical means to do it... except you. Please review some of the testimony and then tell us how "silly" it was.
3. In 1921, GM lost $65 million, leading GM to conclude that the auto market was saturated, that those who desired cars already owned them, and that the only way to increase GM's sales and restore its profitability was by eliminating its principal rival: electric railways.
At the time, 90 percent of all trips were by rail, chiefly electric rail; only one in 10 Americans owned an automobile. There were 1,200 separate electric street and interurban railways, a thriving and profitable industry with 44,000 miles of track, 300,000 employees, 15 billion annual passengers, and $1 billion in income. Virtually every city and town in America of more than 2,500 people had its own electric rail system.
4. Actually locomotives are pre-CIVIL WAR technology. Electric traction rail is pre-WORLD WAR I. But don't let facts get in your way.
5. Diesel engines are modeled on the Diesel cycle. The engine and thermodynamic cycle were both developed by Rudolf Diesel in 1897.
6. People may want them, but when they can't afford them, what options remain?
7. Since the laws of physics and economics support rail transportation as the most efficient, when one has the option to spend far less to take a train ride, methinks folks will "ride the train!"
8. Not true. Based on known reserves of oil, the USA has about 3 years supply (at current consumption rates and zero imports). At current import rates (70%), we are exporting our wealth at a rate that is impoverishing us. Even if we transitioned to natural gas, the estimates concede we will run dry in 20 years.
9. Current subsidies are a reflection of gross interference by government. Examine the period between 1890 and 1910, when there was little interference, minimal taxation, and mostly private ownership of the rails. Remember, after 1913, the government imposed income taxes that ate away the profitability of many many companies.
10. GM is a dying dinosaur, that just got a transfusion. In less than ten years, it will be gone... or bought up by a Chinese company.
11. Insults do not support your opinions, nor does your lack of facts. Read a bit of civil and mechanical engineering references.
12. I do not advocate public subsidy of trains. I advocate zero tax liability and let the private sector succeed or fail on their own.
13. No one has raised the issue of hating cars, except you. The facts are there, for all to read. As time passes, the US has less and less domestic oil. To fuel automobiles, the US requires more and more imports. The US is exporting its wealth to support a transportation mode that was foisted upon us, by misguided and greedy power blocs, who deliberately destroyed their competition so as to lock us into their power. It wasn't the first time that a competitor was destroyed by its successor. Railroad companies often bought up canals and filled them in.
But it wasn't wise then, nor is it wise now. Reducing choices leaves us at the mercy of monopolies, and that is what we have now... a most expensive, wasteful, and destructive monopoly.

Unfortunately politics and power interfere with common sense and engineering.

Interesting historical reference for Cincinnati Streetcars:
http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/#map
 
Old 11-17-2010, 12:46 AM
 
10,135 posts, read 27,356,547 times
Reputation: 8398
I weep for the future if it is you folks who will create it. I'll pray that others who do not look to "govmint" for their solutions will lead you into a productive future. God knows, it won't be statists.
 
Old 11-17-2010, 07:41 AM
 
2,204 posts, read 6,694,987 times
Reputation: 388
I weep for the older folks that are set in their ways and vote for politicians because they have a little "R" near their name. The Ronald Regan era ... Pfsh ... If it don't work, change it. Who would've thought that the mighty dollar would have become the laughing stock of the rest of the world. We will continue to be passed up by our neighbors if we don't start planning 20-50 years down the road. Everyone else in the freakin planet is planning for massive rail networks with speeds that can carry people just as fast if not faster than a planes.

What we need to do though, is get more companies manufacturing trains and railways here in the good ole' U.S. of A.

Wilson, you've got a big house in Mt. Lookout and drive a Mercedes ... you are as out of touch with reality as it gets.
 
Old 11-17-2010, 07:45 AM
 
2,204 posts, read 6,694,987 times
Reputation: 388
Jetgraphics, I know where you stand RE: rail ... I was asking if you had a link for the U.S. Justice Dept. slamming a fine on GM for "Commercialized Conspiracy" for planning a monopoly by being major stake-holder in National City Rail Lines ...?
 
Old 11-17-2010, 07:48 AM
 
2,204 posts, read 6,694,987 times
Reputation: 388
Beavercreek/Jetgraphics ...

Yes, I honestly believer that from the outcome of Issue 9 that the city does indeed want rail options. I cannot say that for the county though. The rest of the county should all just hop on a one-way train and take it down to Alabama somewhere.
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