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Old 04-19-2011, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,193 posts, read 3,315,847 times
Reputation: 1867

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosCallinet View Post
Doesn't that require that the City be willing to give back the grant? If it wishes to spend it on other forms of city improvements or repairs to its streets, doesn't it now have the prerogative to do so, since the money is now theirs?
Not at all. When you take a grant, you enter into a written agreement to spend the money for some specified purpose. This money was offered to support the streetcar and can't be used for anything else. If refused, it would go back into the grant fund and competitively awarded to someone else.

 
Old 04-19-2011, 11:36 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,344 posts, read 13,755,645 times
Reputation: 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosCallinet View Post
Doesn't that require that the City be willing to give back the grant? If it wishes to spend it on other forms of city improvements or repairs to its streets, doesn't it now have the prerogative to do so, since the money is now theirs?
Feds will yank it like they did to the HSR funding...
 
Old 04-19-2011, 02:50 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,144 times
Reputation: 13
Guess, then, with the streetcar officially canceled, that Cincinnati has by now already returned its money.

With the Cincinnati Streetcar now terminated and the the money for it returned to the Feds, it will go down in history as the final time anyone ever seriously proposed building a streetcar in Cincinnati (or any other town in Ohio).

Finally, we've learned our lesson, and learned it well!
 
Old 04-19-2011, 03:04 PM
 
8,631 posts, read 12,299,167 times
Reputation: 6136
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosCallinet View Post
Guess, then, with the streetcar officially canceled, that Cincinnati has by now already returned its money.

With the Cincinnati Streetcar now terminated and the the money for it returned to the Feds, it will go down in history as the final time anyone ever seriously proposed building a streetcar in Cincinnati (or any other town in Ohio).

Finally, we've learned our lesson, and learned it well!

Oh, I so wish this was true. But, any time you have greedy politicians with wealthy friends speculating on real estate and representing persons situated to make a pile on some government boondoggle, the vampire is never dead. These crooks also built the "Transit Center" at a cost of something north of $23 million which has never been put to any useful purpose but which no doubt resulted in much lucre for their confederates.

For my part, I am sick of these pirates and would like someone to figure out ways to spend less, lower taxes and make the lazy City employees put in a full days' work. That's all I need them to do.
 
Old 04-19-2011, 03:22 PM
 
854 posts, read 708,581 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosCallinet View Post
Guess, then, with the streetcar officially canceled, that Cincinnati has by now already returned its money.

With the Cincinnati Streetcar now terminated and the the money for it returned to the Feds, it will go down in history as the final time anyone ever seriously proposed building a streetcar in Cincinnati (or any other town in Ohio).

Finally, we've learned our lesson, and learned it well!
It's not officially cancelled yet, and they haven't sent the money back. They are considering shortening the route. I believe they can afford the Downtown/OTR loop with the money they still have.
 
Old 04-19-2011, 03:57 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,144 times
Reputation: 13
I think, in the end, wiser heads will prevail, and the City Fathers will come to realize that a foreshortened version of the streetcar route will be even less useful than the originally-planned one.

With such vehemently fierce public opposition to the streetcar, Cincinnati must now be soberly re-evaluating what its most prudent next step is to be.

It's inevitable, in my opinion, especially given such strong public opposition to the streetcar, that the city fathers will ultimately see the wisdom in laying this matter to rest, once and for all, and so in the end, they will return the money, however reluctantly, to the Federal Government.

I just learned that, as a result of the recent hard-fought agreement on Capitol Hill to fund the Fiscal Year 2011 Federal Government (thereby averting its shutdown), the two-billion-dollar grant returned by Florida for its canceled high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando is NOT being redistributed among the other contenders for high speed rail projects, but was instead rescissed (de-appropriated and therefore not spent) in its entirety and IS being applied toward reducing the national debt (simply by not adding to it!).

I believe that any further returns of grants, such as this one awarded to Cincinnati, will be treated in the same manner and rescissed, rather than redistributed, when the city finally does get around to returning it.

Last edited by JosCallinet; 04-19-2011 at 04:37 PM..
 
Old 04-19-2011, 05:12 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,098,530 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosCallinet View Post
Guess, then, with the streetcar officially canceled, that Cincinnati has by now already returned its money.

With the Cincinnati Streetcar now terminated and the the money for it returned to the Feds, it will go down in history as the final time anyone ever seriously proposed building a streetcar in Cincinnati (or any other town in Ohio).

Finally, we've learned our lesson, and learned it well!
Hey Dewey, I wouldn't be so quick to trumpet your victory over Truman; the streetcar is anything but dead. Perhaps the uptown connection has been temporarily put on hold, but there is plenty of discussion about proceeding with a downtown loop without any state involvement.

And the "vehemently fierce opposition" which you claim isn't what you think it is. With gas continuing to skyrocket (now over $4 in six states and soon to be over $4 in Ohio), a lot of that opposition may be changing its tune.

Rail in the Cincinnati region - be it in streetcar form in the urban center or light rail linking the suburbs to downtown - is absolutely inevitable. It's just a matter of getting everything lined up (and getting troll governors out of the statehouse). Public rail transit is the future, and the overwhelming majority of metros Cincinnati's size or larger in the U.S., Canada and Europe, along with the rest of the developed world, has already figured that out. Of course, we're the same city that embraced riverboats instead of railroads, and we're the same city that refused to allow the Suspension Bridge to line up directly with our own and Covington's streets, so it's not like we're historically all that bright. We'll get there though.

Last edited by abr7rmj; 04-19-2011 at 05:32 PM..
 
Old 04-19-2011, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
516 posts, read 574,902 times
Reputation: 317

YouTube - Catherine Stehlin for the Cincinnati Streetcar
 
Old 04-19-2011, 09:33 PM
 
1,308 posts, read 1,265,207 times
Reputation: 455
Still very viable if we can get KY into the mix. They have been silent on it the past 6 months or so. If they can fund something with an opening by say 2014 or 2015 i would go ahead with the loop in downtown. Once everything is linked then things will snowball. But KY needs to act with haste.
 
Old 04-20-2011, 06:16 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,144 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by abr7rmj View Post
Hey Dewey, I wouldn't be so quick to trumpet your victory over Truman; the streetcar is anything but dead. Perhaps the uptown connection has been temporarily put on hold, but there is plenty of discussion about proceeding with a downtown loop without any state involvement.

And the "vehemently fierce opposition" which you claim isn't what you think it is. With gas continuing to skyrocket (now over $4 in six states and soon to be over $4 in Ohio), a lot of that opposition may be changing its tune.

Rail in the Cincinnati region - be it in streetcar form in the urban center or light rail linking the suburbs to downtown - is absolutely inevitable. It's just a matter of getting everything lined up (and getting troll governors out of the statehouse). Public rail transit is the future, and the overwhelming majority of metros Cincinnati's size or larger in the U.S., Canada and Europe, along with the rest of the developed world, has already figured that out. Of course, we're the same city that embraced riverboats instead of railroads, and we're the same city that refused to allow the Suspension Bridge to line up directly with our own and Covington's streets, so it's not like we're historically all that bright. We'll get there though.
I cannot but wonder why there is so much heated opposition on this forum's pages to the streetcar. It seems a great many seemingly intelligent and thoughtful people consistently criticize a project whose only REAL purpose seems to be to line greedy politicians' pockets (cynicism runs rampant here!) and has few other redeeming qualities. The second strong counter-argument to the streetcar that I see so many people time and again agreeing on is that Cincinnati is, for all intents and purposes, perilously broke (it can't even afford to open its municipal swimming pools to inner-city kids). These posters here can't in good conscience defend a proposal which they see as asking the city to, in essence, squeeze blood from stones to pay enormous annual subsidies (which it clearly has no revenue sources for) to keep this thing running once it is opened to the public.

What counter-argument can you make to these very heated and evidently valid criticisms posted here regarding their oft-stated opposition (based on rational, indisputable fact?) to the streetcar on cost and practicality grounds, ESPECIALLY considering Cincinnati's terrible financial plight?

More than a few communities do their "streetcars" the rubber-tired budget way, with simple bus or truck chassis dressed up to look like a "trolley". (Would the public know the difference, anyway, between these budget imitations and "genuine, rail-based" streetcars?) Has this cheaper approach to providing Cincinnatians with a "streetcar" been considered? It certainly would be far more affordable than the present proposal, requiring only the purchase of a dozen or so cute little rubber-tired "trolleys", which can be driven over existing streets and which, besides their purchase cost, would require no infrastructure investment except perhaps to resurface the streets used for their route, provide a garage and mechanics to house and maintain them and, of course, hire drivers.

Your thoughts?
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