Cincinnati Streetcars (Dent: calculation, subsidized, disposal)

[Wilson513]

You think that's bad, check out the city with the best commuter train system on the US, Chicago. Go take a look at I-90/94:

Chicago Traffic Cameras on myFoxChicago.com

[DarkWolf]

Rail is not a complete solution ,but it can reduce a ton of congestion if done right. NJT has plans over the next 10 years to expand by 700 miles , 140 of them Light Rail, 2 new networks. If we can do 2 new networks , so can you guys, these networks will serve dense areas that mainly use Highways that are maxed to capacity and can't be expanded. 2 of the Light Rail Networks in my state will serve 100,000+ daily by 2015.

~Corey

[flash3780]

Originally Posted by austiNati

Check out artimis.org if you don't believe Cincinnati has bad traffic. They give current updates and live traffic feed. Here is a picture of our traffic flow for today's commute...



...take a close look at I-75 and I-71...

I-275 in Maryland uses a local and express lanes to improve traffic flow on highways. They also incorporate an HOV lane to encourage car pooling during heavy traffic. For a corridor like I-75, that may be a better design for the highway.

But, I digress. The reasons that rail transit is successful are economic. If it is too expensive to drive your car to a place, people will look for an alternate means. In New York, Chicago, and Washington DC it is prohibitively expensive to commute into the city. So, people take the train. When you have a massive number of people requiring train rides, the price becomes more reasonable.

But, why does it have to be a train? Wouldn't public helicopter transit be cooler? Public hovercraft?

Of course, for public transportation to be successful it has to be user-friendly, reasonably fast, and - most importantly - cheap. Bus rapid transit meets those criteria better than trains. Smarter bus stops and networks are a better way to get there than prohibitively expensive rail lines.

[PhillytoCincy]

LOL I am just praying for the 3 C-Corridor. I have huge faith in the Cincinnati Streetcar system. And when completed, it will be one of the best in the country.

[austiNati]

Alright, Alright. Instead of offering facts I'll voice my opinion on what could improve transportation:
-Reconstruct 1-75
-Completely re-work the metro routes (allow for east to west travel)
-Instead of having every metro line head downtown, build North and South rail lines with east/west bus routes that connect with the rail. Have other North/South routes for areas not connected by rail -Build commuter rail to Milford, W. Chester, Hamilton and Mason
- Connect the most innercity neighborhoods with streetcars which in turn connect with light rail.



Boy thats gonna be expensive. And we would just be rebuilding what we already had... kind of.

[DarkWolf]

Heres some examples of what the Rail system , speeds and general is like form my videos and my friends.
heres an example of a semi High Speed Line & Commuter line
Princeton JCT station : Northeast Corridor Line , NJT & Amtrak , Max Speed Limit 130-40 mph. Future Speed limit by 2025 190mph



Newark Broad Street Station , a very busy station serves 4 lines & Newark City Light Rail



Our busiest Station Newark Penn about 170,000 people use this station each day, The top level is NJT : North Jersey Coastal & Northeast Corridor line aswell as a few Amtrak lines. Cincinnati can one day look like this.



I will post my light rail videos later , but i just wanted to show you the kind of Network and how busy it is.

~Corey

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by austiNati

How GM destroyed Americas Mass transit:
Taken for a Ride

Your answers are within this video sir

Actually went out and looked at this video, got about 2/3 through it before I had enough of the rehashing. Nice production from a consistency standpoint. Noticed funded by Independent Television Service, an entity for supplying to public television (I believe funded by the viewers, and also the government). So they can express their views using public money.

Yes, it bashes Corporate America (GM in particular) as the bad guys. Even libels President Eisenhower (Republican) for his endorsement of the Interstate Highway System.

There was just one small thing I took note of. The number of privately owned streetcar and electric rail system companies mentioned across the country which it contends were decimated by a GM funded front company. If you are independently owned, making money, confident of your idea, why do you sell out? Oh I get it, because the larger company will offer you an immediate return on your assets rather than you actually having to earn it. I believe this is called Capitalism.

So, I propose putting all of these streetcar, light rail, etc. proposals out for bid by private companies. Of course give them incentives such as tax abatements, property acquisitions, etc. At the same time, make it clear they are responsible for sustaining the operation. Let's see how far that idea flies.

[jetgraphics]

I'd preface my reply with the note that the demise of urban electric rail mass transit was due to many factors, not the least were corruption and conspiracy.
The Streetcar Conspiracy - How General Motors Deliberately Destroyed Public Transit (http://saveourwetlands.org/streetcar.htm - broken link)

Originally Posted by wilson1010

Public transportation in a city like Cincinnati is just another way of taking money from taxpayers and giving it to other persons who are usually not taxpayers.

Public transportation option relieves congestion pressures, and has a host of benefits. For example, cities that have a robust urban rail system have very low or no DWI incidents.

There is no public commuter transportation system that operates subsidy free, anywhere in the US.

There is no public road that operates subsidy free. Should the government give the roads back?

If you roll back the calendar to before the income tax, private urban railways were certainly profitable.

A full passenger train is probably better than 1000 cars, but probably not a whole lot better.

You may be surprised.
strickland.ca (www.strickland.ca)

Passenger miles / gallon (equivalent)

Full capacity:
Rail - 2000
Bus - 280
Auto - 100

Typical:
Rail - 600
Bus - 78
Auto - 21

So 1000 autos at single occupancy would consume 1000 times as much fuel per passenger moved when compared to full load rail.

And in terms of the amount of surface area required by 1000 autos versus the equivalent in train cars, it's no contest. . . RAIL WINS. Only rail offers scalability to handle ever growing passenger loads.

And, an empty train returning which we have all seen them do, it is hundreds of times worse. A car stays parked all day.

By some estimates one train track has the equivalent carrying capacity of a nine lane superhighway. Which means that only rail can cope with ever growing populations in gridlocked cities.
The automobile requires a huge amount of surface area, for travel and for parking - at either end of its trip. Rail does not.
In NYC's Subway system, over 6 million people are moved daily, by an average of 6000 cars (1000 / car daily avg).
(NYC has a four track system, equivalent to a 36 lane superhighway)
Can you imagine finding 6 million parking spaces if there was no urban rail?

The train runs back and forth with or without a full load of commuters. I have relatives that live in sight of the Metra Rail and I've seen whole trains without a soul on board roaring down the tracks sucking down fuel and wearing out metal and adding to the noise all day long.

The rate of wear and tear on rail is minimal when compared to the wear and tear on paved roads.
Rail lifetime is measured in decades and centuries, while paved roads need repaving and repair practically every other year.

PCC streetcar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The PCC streetcar had 4 x 55 hp motors. 220 hp.

2010 Ford F-150 has a 320 hp engine.

A PCC streetcar (crush load : 100 passengers) consumes LESS POWER than a Ford pickup truck.

100 Ford F-150 pickups hauling 100 people, twice a day, and parked, would still waste far more fuel than a PCC streetcar hauling 2 crush loads, and cruising empty for the remainder of the day.
(Assuming 2 roundtrips per hour, or 16 per day; 1/2 hr commute for trucker)
100 x 320 hp/hr = 32,000 hp/hr per day (Ford Truck)
8 x 220 hp/hr = 1,760 hp/hr per day

So, I wouldn't be so quick to endorse rail commuting or to condemn those who oppose it.

I hope you change your mind.

As Stickland.ca site reminds us:
A transportation system that relies on a "non-renewable" resource is bound for collapse - the only question is whether we adapt in time, not whether we need to adapt.

[austiNati]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

A transportation system that relies on a "non-renewable" resource is bound for collapse - the only question is whether we adapt in time, not whether we need to adapt.

This is the main thing alot of people forget. Petroleum will not be here for ever; so by that logic, buses and cars won't either, unless we change our fuel. Thats why I see so much potential for rail.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

There was just one small thing I took note of. The number of privately owned streetcar and electric rail system companies mentioned across the country which it contends were decimated by a GM funded front company. If you are independently owned, making money, confident of your idea, why do you sell out? Oh I get it, because the larger company will offer you an immediate return on your assets rather than you actually having to earn it. I believe this is called Capitalism.

No, it was socialism, not capitalism, that destroyed America's electric rail.
The demise of America's privately owned and operated rail systems was fueled by "progressive" politicians who taxed or regulated them to death, often taking them over, after crippling them.
The Third Rail - Back to the Future, New York's Lost Transit Legacy - Preface
(Check out LaGuardia's venom for private rail)

Before the rise of petroleum, rail transportation dominated America.

In 1916, when heavy rail peaked, there were 254,000 miles of track.
Currently, about 160,000 miles remain.
http://www.aar.org/PubCommon/Documen...Statistics.pdf

Streetcar suburb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Streetcar miles of track reached 34,404 by 1907, in 140 cities. And as many as 60,000 streetcars. PCC streetcars could hold as many as 100 passengers - which means 6,000,000 capacity at any given moment.

http://planoconservancy.org/content/view/13/2/ (broken link)
The interurban electric railway for the entire country totaled approximately 18,000 miles (1917).

http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/weyrich.cfm
Bring Back The Streetcars!