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Old 04-15-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
1A New York

2A. Los Angeles
2B. Chicago

3A. Washington
3B. Bay Area
3C. Houston
3D. Boston

4A. DFW
4B. Atlanta
4C. Philadelphia
4D. Detroit
4E. Miami
4F. Seattle
My list is identical, only differences are separating Bay Area and Washington and putting them in a tier of their very own, separate from Houston and Boston and right below the Los Angeles and Chicago tier.

Then I would break Dallas, that $400 Billion dollar economy and logistical beast of a city out of that tier it's in right now on your list, the one where it's economy deserves being far away from and put it with Boston and Houston and the three will form their own tier. Their advantage? Logistics and a complete monster on energy, market capitalization, education (see tmac9wr's post on Boston), bio-sciences, health-care (see tmac9wr's post on Boston), foreign investment, nobel laureates, and a couple of other things. Not to mention an entire tier full of cities among the healthiest economies in the country. This tier keeps one of the world's busiest seaports and again one of the absolute busiest airports and another very powerful one. Oh, almost forgot the university endowments, which often amount to (for Boston) more money than entire 800,000-1,000,000 metropolitans' economies and the patents involved with being inventive.

Then Philadelphia deserves to be in it's own tier by itself, an economy around $380 deserves to be removed from kid-conomies in the 200 Billion's.

The rest look fine, Detroit could probably move behind Miami and it's all good to go, for now. That is until that tier catches up, which it will.

Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 04-15-2013 at 09:35 AM..
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
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Well everyone has slightly different requirements.

They guy a couple posts above thinks that Boston should be ahead of SF and DC, you think it should be a full tier below. For me they are all in the same boat.

To me NY is just far away the premiere city in North America

Chicago and LA are universal cities that have been above the rest for a while.

DC, SF, Boston and Houston are together because they are more than regional economic powers. Kind of where nationally important cities meet globally important ones. All for are moving closer to jumping up a tier not just SF And DC. In the end i don't really see DC and Baltimore as being all that unified and apart from a few key areas (like being the seat of government for the country), DC is not all that higher than Houston or Boston.

DFW skips that tier because I see it being more on the national side than the global side. As it gets more international it may join the others.

The next cities are definitely where regional meets national. Actually i would put Detroit closer to Dfw than lower than Miami. Like Houston it has a globally important economy. It looks like it is slowly making a resurgence, but even with its fall i still place ot above Miami. Other cities that are close to this tier would be MSP, Denver and San Diego.

Then the tier with cities more regional than national would be places like Cleveland, Cincinatti, Portland, Tampa, STL, Orlando, San Antonio, Austin, Charlotte, indianapolis, etc.

Then the smaller regional hubs like Tulsa, little Rock, Grand Rapids, etc
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:47 AM
 
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Talk about a joke. The photo you posted of downtown Minneapolis is over 8 years old (the Central library is still under construction). There has been a lot of development since then. And what's with the aerial shots? I don't think it would be a surprise to anyone that Boston has a bit more density than Minneapolis. After all, Boston is a much older city and occupies less land than Minneapolis (48.4 sq mi vs 54.9 sq mi).

Anyway I agree that Boston is ahead of Minneapolis, but not by as much as you think, especially when it comes to being one of the top business centers.

Example:
Fortune 500 companies (2012)
Minneapolis area: 18
Boston area: 10

2012 Fortune 500 HQ Locations Ranked by Revenue:
(Revenues $millions)
Minneapolis: $465,626.50
Boston: $177,242.80

Last edited by YIMBY; 04-15-2013 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: The City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
Talk about a joke. The photo you posted of downtown Minneapolis is over 8 years old (the Central library is still under construction). There has been a lot of development since then. And what's with the aerial shots? I don't think it would be a surprise to anyone that Boston has a bit more density than Minneapolis. After all, Boston is a much older city and occupies less land than Minneapolis (48.4 sq mi vs 54.9 sq mi).

Anyway I agree that Boston is ahead of Minneapolis, but not by as much as you think, especially when it comes to being one of the top business centers.

Example:
Fortune 500 companies (2012)
Minneapolis area: 18
Boston area: 10

2012 Fortune 500 HQ Locations Ranked by Revenue:
(Revenues $millions)
Minneapolis: $465,626.50
Boston: $177,242.80
Wouldnt GDP or even Income be a better marker on the whole

While F500 companies are a good thing they are not all telling or a best comparator

Would you consider Bentonville AR to be on par with MSP?

Bentonville F500 Revenue = $447 Billion
MSP F500 Revenue = $466 Billion
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
Well everyone has slightly different requirements.

They guy a couple posts above thinks that Boston should be ahead of SF and DC, you think it should be a full tier below. For me they are all in the same boat.

To me NY is just far away the premiere city in North America

Chicago and LA are universal cities that have been above the rest for a while.

DC, SF, Boston and Houston are together because they are more than regional economic powers. Kind of where nationally important cities meet globally important ones. All for are moving closer to jumping up a tier not just SF And DC. In the end i don't really see DC and Baltimore as being all that unified and apart from a few key areas (like being the seat of government for the country), DC is not all that higher than Houston or Boston.

DFW skips that tier because I see it being more on the national side than the global side. As it gets more international it may join the others.

The next cities are definitely where regional meets national. Actually i would put Detroit closer to Dfw than lower than Miami. Like Houston it has a globally important economy. It looks like it is slowly making a resurgence, but even with its fall i still place ot above Miami. Other cities that are close to this tier would be MSP, Denver and San Diego.

Then the tier with cities more regional than national would be places like Cleveland, Cincinatti, Portland, Tampa, STL, Orlando, San Antonio, Austin, Charlotte, indianapolis, etc.

Then the smaller regional hubs like Tulsa, little Rock, Grand Rapids, etc
At the end of the day, speculating on where cities rank over their industries becomes tough and we look at how the world rates places which is by GDP and GDP per capita. Do you know how they delineate between a developed nation and a developing one? They put a price tag on each persons head, the number is the per capita of their economies production power (GDP). Countries that surpass certain thresholds, are developed world and countries that are below are developing world. It seems like a brutal way to judge a place but in some parts of the world, life is literally cheap and their per capita rates reflect their position between developed and underdeveloped world and that's the exact same standard I use along with total GDP for our American cities, which by the way blow those developing world nations out of the water by themselves.

Ask Kenya. They're quite excited their ascending trajectory on per capita will get them to developed world status by 2024 and they're embarking on that year, it's one of their sales pitches to the Summer Olympics they said they're bidding in later on.

I just go straight off GDP, making other arguments is more of like an additional tag but I go off GDP because it's the same standard we compare how lucrative countries are in this world, by their stature and standing, which also proves the millions of articles over the last I don't know how many years with analysts like Alan Greenspan throwing a fit about (when/if) China passes us. So much press, so much intimidation, and so much fear over this but so much more of a reason to reignite this economy and stay in first place. GDP isn't always best but those are rare cases for select cities that have had a longevity standing amongst the tops in the world for commerce. More often than not GDP is pretty straight forward.

I don't believe there is any set criteria that suits all people nor should people be easily swayed, by the way. I understand we can all have a right to our opinion but I'm just seeking for a further explanation for what sets Houston apart from Dallas to where they're in different tiers altogether.

Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 04-15-2013 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Wouldnt GDP or even Income be a better marker on the whole

While F500 companies are a good thing they are not all telling or a best comparator

Would you consider Bentonville AR to be on par with MSP?

Bentonville F500 Revenue = $447 Billion
MSP F500 Revenue = $466 Billion
I just threw F500 companies out there as an example. I know there are a number of factors that could be considered, including GDP and income.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
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Code (Darn it stick with one name already) anyway, its more to it than GDP. Its GDP plus range of Corporations, foreign trade, etc etc, Wikipedia defines Global city using these characteristics:

Economic characteristics
corporate headquarter sites for multinational corporations,
International financial institutions, law firms, conglomerates, and stock exchanges that influence the world economy
Gross domestic product (GDP)
House the major stock market indices/market capitalisation
Provide a variety of international financial services, notably in the FIRE industries, banking, accountancy, and marketing
Appear near the top of cost of living


Political characteristics

Active influence on, and participation in, international events and world affairs
Hosting headquarters for international organizations such as the United Nations (New York City), the World Bank (Washington, D.C.), or NATO (Brussels).
A large city proper, population of the municipality (the centre of a metropolitan area, typically several million) or agglomeration
Diverse demographic constituencies based on various indicators: population, habitat, mobility, and urbanisation
Quality of life standards or city development
Expatriate communities


Cultural characteristics

Renowned cultural institutions (often with high endowments), such as notable museums and galleries, notable opera companies, major ballet companies, orchestras, notable film centres, and theatre centres. A lively cultural scene, including film festivals , premieres, a thriving music scene, nightlife, an opera company, art galleries,

Several influential media organisations with an international reach,
A strong sporting community, including major sports facilities, home teams in major league sports, and the ability and historical experience to host international sporting events such as the Olympic Games, FIFA World Cup, or Grand Slam tennis events.
Educational institutions; e.g., renowned universities, international student attendance,[17] research facilities
Cities containing World Heritage Sites of historical and cultural significance
City as site or subject in arts and media, television, film, video games, music, literature, magazines, articles, documentary
City as an often repeated historic reference, showcase, or symbolic actions


Infrastructural characteristics

An advanced transportation system that includes several highways and/or a large mass transit network offering multiple modes of transportation (rapid transit, light rail, regional rail, ferry, or bus).
Extensive and popular mass transit systems, prominent rail usage, road vehicle usage, major seaports
A major international airport that serves as an established hub for several international airlines. Airports with significant passenger traffic and international passengers traffic or cargo movements.
An advanced communications infrastructure on which modern trans-national corporations rely, such as fiberoptics, Wi-Fi networks, cellular phone services, and other high-speed lines of communications. For example, Seoul and Tokyo are known as the digital and technology capitals of the world.[citation needed]
Health facilities; e.g., hospitals, medical laboratories
Prominent skylines/skyscrapers (for example, Hong Kong, New York City, Shanghai, Tokyo, Dubai, Chicago, Guangzhou, Bangkok, Shenzhen, Singapore)
Cities' telephone and mail services, airport flights-range, traffic congestion, availability of water, train facilities, nearby parks, hospitals, libraries, police stations, etc.

Using these 4 areas we can develop concrete tiers for the top US cities.

Economic characteristics

corporate headquarter sites for multinational corporations
By City:
New York NY 45
Houston TX 22
Dallas TX 10
Atlanta GA 10
Minneapolis MN 9
Chicago IL 8
St. Louis MO 8
San Fran CA 8
Charlotte NC 7
Cincinnati OH 6
Cleveland CO 5
Columbus OH 5
Englewood CO 5
Los Angeles CA 5
McLean VA 5
Milwaukee WI 5
Omaha NE 5
Philadelphia PA 5
Phoenix AZ 5
Pittsburgh PA 5
Richmond VA 5
San Antonio TX 5

By CSA: It says MSA but its CSA
New York City MSA - 66
Bay Area - 30
Chicago MSA - 29
Houston MSA - 25
Los Angeles MSA - 20
Washington D.C. MSA - 20
Dallas - Fort Worth MSA - 18
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA - 18
Atlanta MSA - 13
Detroit MSA - 13
Philadelphia MSA - 12
Boston MSA - 10
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk MSA - 9
Charlotte MSA - 9
Cincinnati MSA - 9
Denver MSA - 9
Pittsburgh - 9
St. Louis MSA - 9
Cleveland MSA - 8
Seattle MSA - 8
Columbus MSA - 6
Milwaukee MSA - 6
Phoenix MSA - 6
Hartford MSA - 5
Miami - Fort Lauderdale MSA - 5
Omaha MSA - 5
Richmond MSA - 5
San Antonio MSA - 5

GDP by MSA:
By Metropolitan Area:

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA Metro Area $1,277,228 ($1,280,517)
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA Metro Area $747,306 ($735,743)
3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI Metro Area $547,609 ($532,331)
4. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metro Area $433,097 ($425,167)
5. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX Metro Area $419,636 ($384,603)
6. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metro Area $391,350 ($374,081)
7. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metro Area $353,323 ($346,932)
8. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA Metro Area $347,107 ($325,927)
9. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH Metro Area $325,585 ($313,690)
10. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA Metro Area $283,344 ($272,362)
11. Miami-Ft Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL Metro Area $263.376 ($257,560)
12. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metro Area $239,710 ($231,221)
13. Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metro Area $207,819 ($199,596)
14. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI Metro Area $199,378 ($197,773)
15. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metro Area $194.793 ($190,601)
16. San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA Metro Area $176,736 ($168,517)
17. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA Metro Area $172.583 ($171.568)
18. Denver-Aurora, CO Metro Area $161,956 ($157,567)
19. Baltimore-Towson, MD Metro Area $148,256 ($144,789)

GDP by CSA: rather overreaching in this aspect but:
1. New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA $1.456 Trillion
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT Metro Area $84,923
Kingston, NY Metro Area $4,721
New Haven-Milford, CT Metro Area $39,801
New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA Metro Area $1,277,228
Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown, NY Metro Area $22,497
Torrington, CT Micro Area
Trenton-Ewing, NJ Metro Area $26,946

2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA $897.207 Billion
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA Metro Area $747,306
Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA Metro Area $38,386
Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metro Area $111,515

3. Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA $586.593 Billion
Baltimore-Towson, MD Metro Area $148,256
Lexington Park, MD Micro Area
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metro Area $433,097
Winchester, VA-WV Metro Area $5,240

4. San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA $575.182 Billion
Napa, CA Metro Area $6,880
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA Metro Area $347,107
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA Metro Area $176,736
Santa Cruz-Watsonville, CA Metro Area $9,451
Santa Rosa-Petaluma, CA Metro Area $20,461
Vallejo-Fairfield, CA Metro Area $14,547

5. Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA $554.511 Billion
Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI Metro Area $547,609
Kankakee-Bradley, IL Metro Area $3,231
Michigan City-La Porte, IN Metro Area $3,671

6. Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA $446.405 Billion
Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH Metro Area $325,585
Concord, NH Micro Area
Manchester-Nashua, NH Metro Area $22,392
Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA Metro Area $68,089
Worcester, MA Metro Area $30,339

7. Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA $419.636 Billion
Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX Metro Area $419,636

8. Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA $394.902 Billion
Athens, TX Micro Area
Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metro Area $391,350
Sherman-Denison, TX Metro Area $3,552

9. Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA $373.249 Billion
Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metro Area $353,323
Reading, PA Metro Area $14,816
Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ Metro Area $5,110

10. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL $289.787 Billion
Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA Metro Area $283,344
Gainesville, GA Metro Area $6,443

11. Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA $264.209 Billion
Bremerton-Silverdale, WA Metro Area $8,982
Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA Metro Area $6,531
Oak Harbor, WA Micro Area
Olympia, WA Metro Area $8,986
Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metro Area $239,710

12. Miami-Ft Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL Metro Area $263.376 Billion

13. Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA $233.130 Billion
Ann Arbor, MI Metro Area $18,689
Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI Metro Area $199,378
Flint, MI Metro Area $11,325
Monroe, MI Metro Area $3,738

14. Minneapolis-St Paul-St Cloud, MN-WI CSA $215.575 Billion
Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metro Area $207,819
St Cloud, MN Metro Area $7,756

15. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metro Area $194.793 Billion

Combining these stats and others such as Stock exchanges, International firms, Cost of living, we can edge out a ranking for economic powers as follows:

By Metro you get these groups of tiers:
1. NY

2. LA/ Chicago

3. DC/ Houston/Boston

4. DFW/ Boston/ SF

5. Philly/ ATL/ Detroit/ Seattle/Miami



By CSA you get:
1. NY

2. LA

3. Chicago/Bay Area/ DC

4. Boston/ Houston

5. DFW/ Philly/ ATL

Overall NY is an economic power house across the board and stands in its own tier at number one.

The second tier depends on how you look at it. As an MSA Chicago hangs with LA but as a CSA it falls to where it is dead even with SF and DC and even approaching Houston.

The third tier is also ticklish. Does DC belong with Chicago and the Bay or does it belong with Houston and Boston? Should we look at SF as an MSA and rank it with DFW and Boston or look at the Bay overall and rank it with Chicago and DC? I look at it as a high breed approach. I don't think that DC and SF are unified metros enough to hag with CHicago, but SF is definitely not as small as its MSA stats would indicate.

SO I would rank Chicago as a solidly second tier city with LA

The Third Tier I think DC and SF should remain. Boston is a financial Powerhouse. It has a huge GDP. It has large global economic institutions, etc etc. It firmly belongs in the 3rd tier.
Houston does well as a stand alone city. It has 22 out of its 25 F500 companies in the city making it second only to NY. Overall it is 3rd behind NY and Chicago on overall F500 companies by MSA giving it almost as many as the entire Bay Area, More than the Balt-Wash CSA and far more than Boston, 66 of the worlds largest non US based companies have a presence in Houston, 54 F1000 companies are headquartered in Houston. Houston is home to 68 publicly traded companies with over a Billion in sales. That is second only to NY. Houston is second only to NY in terms of Foreign Trade $$$. Therefore I think Houston hanging with and surpassing the likes of the Bay, DC and Boston (sometimes Chicago) makes it a solid tier 3.

In Tier 4 DFW is clearly the strongest. It has a rapidly growing economy. It has two less F500 companies than the Bay, it has about 40 publicly traded companies with over a billion in sales, its economic stature is robust, but not as robust as the tier 3 metros, and not as international.
ATL has a robust corporate presence but has been bleeding since the middle of the last decade losing powerhouses such as Bell South to AT&T. Philly is the same. It has a huge corporate presence, a healthy economy but bleeding large corporations.

In the end the largest cities rank how I ranked them before:

1. NY

2. Los Angeles, Chicago

3. Washington, The Bay Area, Houston, Boston

4. DFW, Philly, Atlanta, Detroit, Miami, Seattle...

anyway, I will do the three other categories later, but this is actually DFW's best category. Well that and Infrastructure
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
By CSA: It says MSA but its CSA
New York City MSA - 66
Bay Area - 30
Chicago MSA - 29
Houston MSA - 25
Los Angeles MSA - 20
Washington D.C. MSA - 20
Dallas - Fort Worth MSA - 18
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA - 18
Atlanta MSA - 13
Detroit MSA - 13
Philadelphia MSA - 12
Boston MSA - 10
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk MSA - 9
Charlotte MSA - 9
Cincinnati MSA - 9
Denver MSA - 9
Pittsburgh - 9
St. Louis MSA - 9
Cleveland MSA - 8
Seattle MSA - 8
Columbus MSA - 6
Milwaukee MSA - 6
Phoenix MSA - 6
Hartford MSA - 5
Miami - Fort Lauderdale MSA - 5
Omaha MSA - 5
Richmond MSA - 5
San Antonio MSA - 5
This listing is for MSA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
Combining these stats and others such as Stock exchanges, International firms, Cost of living, we can edge out a ranking for economic powers as follows:

By Metro you get these groups of tiers:
1. NY

2. LA/ Chicago

3. DC/ Houston/Boston

4. DFW/ Boston/ SF

5. Philly/ ATL/ Detroit/ Seattle/Miami
I would add Minneapolis group 5 as it's on par with Detroit in many areas.

Last edited by YIMBY; 04-15-2013 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
This listing is for MSA.
The Bay Area is not an MSA.
Off the top of my head SF has about 20 F500 companies, while the Bay has about 30.


DC has about 20 f500 companies though. For CSA the only one that makes a difference is the Bay as it adds a significant number of f500. Baltimore adds what to DC 1 company? Compare that to the more than a dozen in the SJ area.

I think that is the reason why some people find it hard to see SJ as a secondary city in a metro. It pulls enough weight to be its own MSA with its own tier of importance. No way near as important than SF but important nonetheless.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
The Bay Area is not an MSA.
Off the top of my head SF has about 20 F500 companies, while the Bay has about 30.


DC has about 20 f500 companies though. For CSA the only one that makes a difference is the Bay as it adds a significant number of f500. Baltimore adds what to DC 1 company? Compare that to the more than a dozen in the SJ area.

I think that is the reason why some people find it hard to see SJ as a secondary city in a metro. It pulls enough weight to be its own MSA with its own tier of importance. No way near as important than SF but important nonetheless.
I'm sorry, but I didn't see "Bay Area." However, it looks like the rest are MSA. I had to put together a market report that called for the number of fortune 500 companies for each MSA so, the numbers looked familiar.
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