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Tier 2
Charlotte
San Antonio
Tampa
Orlando
Norfolk-VA Beach (Hampton Roads)
Austin
New Orleans
Nashville
Raleigh-Durham
Northern VA
I would consider Northern VA as it has a population of 2 million and is 100% clearly in the South. It's economic prowess comes from being part of the DC region so I'll understand if people don't want to include it but with the cities of Arlington and Alexandria being populous and historical. Perhaps it's not fair to count it since it's part of metro DC but I'd also say it's not fair to count none of the region as in the South. That's my compromise-the South doesn't get the 1st tier Washington DC metro but it does get 2nd tier Nova.
I'm not quite sure why you post this statistic. But to clarify what I am saying allow me to state this. Charlotte's workforce is around 816k. So it is significantly less than SA. However, Charlotte's GDP is nearly $40 billion more than SA with 85k less workforce. I guess this means Charlotte's workforce is more productive or the industries that makeup Charlotte's workforce is more lucrative. Idk. And before the bankiing comment comes, banking is about 10% of Charlotte's GDP. If this was subtracted from Charlotte's GDP Charlotte would still be up over SA by about $30 billion.
It is for reasons like this why I say Charlotte, Tampa, and Orlando are quite ahead of the other second tier metros; because their economies are larger. But SA and Austin, IMO the Texas Twins, aren't too far behind and should be commended for continuing to create jobs despite the recession. If that trend continues they will be there with the above 3.
San Antonio's workforce is over 1 million.
I thnk one of the reasons the GDP is higher up north is because the cost of living is much lower in San Antonio and Austin for housing etc etc. Housing, Goods and services are apart of the GDP. Now if things cost the same, equally the same across the board, the numbers would jump for San Antonio and Austin. Plus San Antonio and Austin markets overlap each other.
I'm unsure why you left off Hampton Roads and included Austin. I'm only singling you out because you have the most recent post but there's is a huge availability bias in elevating some cities and not others.
Norfolk-VA Beach:
Pop-1.7 million
GDP-I could only find 2006 numbers which were 71 Billion.
-Largest shipyard in the world
-Largest Naval base in the world with 5 carriers based out of it
-9th most important US port
-4 Fortune 500 companies (Smithfield Foods, Norfolk Southern, Dollar Tree, Amerigroup)
I'm not saying Hampton Roads should beat Austin or vice versa. But can someone explain to me why Austin is given so much love besides the fact that it is constantly mentioned by the media and on C-D?
One thing clear from your post is that you have not read this thread in its entirety. Which is understandable, it has become quite long. The other thing is that I was summing up the votes and I included cities that received at least 1/3 of the votes. I didn't place them in order.
On another note. I am well familar with HR and I actually voted for it in this thread. NoVa wasn't counted because it is not the dominant city in its MSA but is apart of a tier 1 MSA, this same case could be applied to Fort Worth, which actually has a larger city proper than Charlotte.
One thing clear from your post is that you have not read this thread in its entirety. Which is understandable, it has become quite long. The other thing is that I was summing up the votes and I included cities that received at least 1/3 of the votes. I didn't place them in order.
On another note. I am well familar with HR and I actually voted for it in this thread. NoVa wasn't counted because it is not the dominant city in its MSA but is apart of a tier 1 MSA, this same case could be applied to Fort Worth, which actually has a larger city proper than Charlotte.
One thing clear from your post is that you have not read my post in its entirety. I just find it interesting how certain cities like Austin get an unfair (imo) boost and I believe I addressed the overall trend more so than your individual post. But right or wrong you identified a "top 7" which I disagreed with since you did not make it clear that you were tallying anything up.
Fair enough about NOVA I don't expect the idea to catch on. My point has to be considered in the context that according to most City-Daters all of Metro DC is excluded from the South yet all of DFW is included even though according to some Fort Worth is the beginning of the West. By the way, Nova's state tax revenues go to Richmond, not DC. It's a vital part of Virginia so we can't ignore it when discussing the South.
Tier 2
Charlotte
San Antonio
Tampa
Orlando
Norfolk-VA Beach (Hampton Roads)
Austin
New Orleans
Nashville
Raleigh-Durham
Northern VA
I would consider Northern VA as it has a population of 2 million and is 100% clearly in the South. It's economic prowess comes from being part of the DC region so I'll understand if people don't want to include it but with the cities of Arlington and Alexandria being populous and historical. Perhaps it's not fair to count it since it's part of metro DC but I'd also say it's not fair to count none of the region as in the South. That's my compromise-the South doesn't get the 1st tier Washington DC metro but it does get 2nd tier Nova.
The Orlando CSA is 2,650,000. Polk County used to be more attached to Tampa, now it has become debatable whether it is more tied in with Orlando or Tampa. Sumter county which is north of Tampa is part of the Orlando CSA. Flagler County seems like it would be attached to Jacksonville is also a part of the Orlando CSA. Orlando has become a big spiderweb similar to Atlanta. Tampa and St. Pete seem to be tied to the coastal areas, like Sarasota-Bradenton and New Port Richie-Spring Hill and Land o lakes. Driving I-4 from Orlando to Tampa seems to take so little time and it feels more and more like the cities are attached. I believe I-4 corridor is quickly becoming "orlampa." The divison of Polk county is proof of that. Much of the tourism industry workforce lives as far as Lakeland, and Auburndale is touted as a "more home for your money" exburb of Orlando. Orlando's built up areas begin at US 27 exit (Haines City/Clermont) and Tampa's built up area begins at the Eastern end of the Polk Parkway. Orlando's sprawl on I-4 goes to the FLA 44 New Smyrna exit. I believe the area will become a first tier region before Charlotte. People make trips from Tampa to Orlando's huge shopping opportunities like Bloomingdales and the huge Macy's that is much different than the converted Macy stores in both metros and the outlet shopping in Orlando. Orlando residents head to Tampa to enjoy the Ybor City nightlife and the St. Pete beaches and farmers market. Both metros are interacting with each other daily, hence the reason for the first high speed rail line to link Orlando and Tampa. Myself and friends have taken Amtrak many times to Tampa so we can party in Ybor and Channelside, get a hotel room and return the next day. I have Tampa friends who have done the same thing, coming to Orlando for shopping exursions, theme park trips, and Orlando nightlife. The whole region mixes it up quite a bit. Another major issue is the accepting of diversity in Orlando and Tampa Bay. There is basically no Homophobia in either cities and Charlotte has a problem of even creating a small pride event. St.Petersburg has the largest gay pride parade and festival in the state of Florida, with over 90,000 partcipants right in the heart of the city. Tampa has a section of Ybor City officially named Gaybor City and straight and gay communities are intermingled with no issues. Tampa's trendy areas of Hyde Park and SoHo and West Tampa are very liberal minded, along with Kenwood in St Pete. Orlando is very accepting of the gay community, the largest event in the country, Gay Days, attracts over 150,000 GLBT people to the city and they are formally welcomed by the mayors of Orlando and Orange County as well as commissioners. In October, Downtown Orlando embraces "The most Colorful Parade in the City" when Orlando celebrates the Coming Out With Pride parade and festival in the center of the city, and the mayor of Orlando has even lead the parade, the city is decked out with rainbow flags on the lamposts, straight people bring their kids to see the parade and each year it breaks attendance records with last year hosting 40,000 people. The trendy Orlando neighborhoods of Thorton Park, South Eola, Colonialtown, Eola Heights, the ViMi district and College Park have straight and gay residents living in harmony with each other. This is much more Miami or Atlanta-like than Charlotte even comes close to. So that is another major aspect that gives the region a more tier one truly urban atmosphere. Openly gay politicians serve office in both metros. The cities also have a higher than average amount of succesful African Americans than the national average. Orlando has a huge Latino population representing 27% of Orange county residents and Spanglish is spoken throughout the city and on the radio. Huge Hispanic festivals and parades are held in Orlando, Calle Orange and Festival Medina as well as the Puerto Rican parade. Tampa is heavily Latino to a lesser extent but that culture is a large make up of Tampa Bay's population. I think these issues interwoven in Central Florida society brings it way ahead in the first tier status.
Last edited by metrowester; 07-22-2010 at 10:50 AM..
One thing clear from your post is that you have not read my post in its entirety. I just find it interesting how certain cities like Austin get an unfair (imo) boost and I believe I addressed the overall trend more so than your individual post. But right or wrong you identified a "top 7" which I disagreed with since you did not make it clear that you were tallying anything up.
Fair enough about NOVA I don't expect the idea to catch on. My point has to be considered in the context that according to most City-Daters all of Metro DC is excluded from the South yet all of DFW is included even though according to some Fort Worth is the beginning of the West. By the way, Nova's state tax revenues go to Richmond, not DC. It's a vital part of Virginia so we can't ignore it when discussing the South.
I did read your post in its entirety, I'm lost to most of your response. NoVa is a secondary part of the DC MSA, due to that it is a part of a tier 1 metro. This thread is about the second tier. Therefore NoVa is excluded cuz of that. IMO the state of Virginia is southern, the whole state. However, that is not the point of this thread.
How does Austin have an unfair boost? Its a fast growing metro, stable economy, has created the most jobs in this thread, and has a top notch university and high tech center.
The Orlando CSA is 2,650,000. Polk County used to be more attached to Tampa, now it has become debatable whether it is more tied in with Orlando or Tampa. Sumter county which is north of Tampa is part of the Orlando CSA. Flagler County seems like it would be attached to Jacksonville is also a part of the Orlando CSA. Orlando has become a big spiderweb similar to Atlanta. Tampa and St. Pete seem to be tied to the coastal areas, like Sarasota-Bradenton and New Port Richie-Spring Hill and Land o lakes. Driving I-4 from Orlando to Tampa seems to take so little time and it feels more and more like the cities are attached. I believe I-4 corridor is quickly becoming "orlampa." The divison of Polk county is proof of that. Much of the tourism industry workforce lives as far as Lakeland, and Auburndale is touted as a "more home for your money" exburb of Orlando. Orlando's built up areas begin at US 27 exit (Haines City/Clermont) and Tampa's built up area begins at the Eastern end of the Polk Parkway. Orlando's sprawl on I-4 goes to the FLA 44 New Smyrna exit. I believe the area will become a first tier region before Charlotte. People make trips from Tampa to Orlando's huge shopping opportunities like Bloomingdales and the huge Macy's that is much different than the converted Macy stores in both metros and the outlet shopping in Orlando. Orlando residents head to Tampa to enjoy the Ybor City nightlife and the St. Pete beaches and farmers market. Both metros are interacting with each other daily, hence the reason for the first high speed rail line to link Orlando and Tampa. Myself and friends have taken Amtrak many times to Tampa so we can party in Ybor and Channelside, get a hotel room and return the next day. I have Tampa friends who have done the same thing, coming to Orlando for shopping exursions, theme park trips, and Orlando nightlife. The whole region mixes it up quite a bit. Another major issue is the accepting of diversity in Orlando and Tampa Bay. There is basically no Homophobia in either cities and Charlotte has a problem of even creating a small pride event. St.Petersburg has the largest gay pride parade and festival in the state of Florida, with over 90,000 partcipants right in the heart of the city. Tampa has a section of Ybor City officially named Gaybor City and straight and gay communities are intermingled with no issues. Tampa's trendy areas of Hyde Park and SoHo and West Tampa are very liberal minded, along with Kenwood in St Pete. Orlando is very accepting of the gay community, the largest event in the country, Gay Days, attracts over 150,000 GLBT people to the city and they are formally welcomed by the mayors of Orlando and Orange County as well as commissioners. In October, Downtown Orlando embraces "The most Colorful Parade in the City" when Orlando celebrates the Coming Out With Pride parade and festival in the center of the city, and the mayor of Orlando has even lead the parade, the city is decked out with rainbow flags on the lamposts, straight people bring their kids to see the parade and each year it breaks attendance records with last year hosting 40,000 people. The trendy Orlando neighborhoods of Thorton Park, South Eola, Colonialtown, Eola Heights, the ViMi district and College Park have straight and gay residents living in harmony with each other. This is much more Miami or Atlanta-like than Charlotte even comes close to. So that is another major aspect that gives the region a more tier one truly urban atmosphere. Openly gay politicians serve office in both metros. The cities also have a higher than average amount of succesful African Americans than the national average. Orlando has a huge Latino population representing 27% of Orange county residents and Spanglish is spoken throughout the city and on the radio. Huge Hispanic festivals and parades are held in Orlando, Calle Orange and Festival Medina as well as the Puerto Rican parade. Tampa is heavily Latino to a lesser extent but that culture is a large make up of Tampa Bay's population. I think these issues interwoven in Central Florida society brings it way ahead in the first tier status.
First, please use paragraphs. This will make reading your post so much easier.
Second, the interaction between Tampa and Orlando is good and awesome, but I don't see this as an advantage in becoming one MSA or CSA unless 15% of the population uses. Now, as a megaregion, you definitely have a point.
Charlotte definitely has no homophobia and has several pride events. While shopping and openly tolerant atmospheres are great they do not constitute a tier 1 city/metro. Economic enhancements, job growth/creation, etc. do. It's all about the money.
Sorry about the non use of paragraphs. As for Charlotte Pride, I was under the impression while reading forums on Urban Planet that there was some issues about Pride events, that's where that is coming from.
I understand it's all about the money for tier one cities, but every pro or con about tier one series here have listed a pro as a tolerant/liberal/educated population and great shopping. Most of the cities listed here as 2nd tier cities all have job growth/creation,etc. That is until this Great Recession.
I suppose nightlife and entertainment have nothing to do to create a tier one city, I would count all these factors in seeing that NYC, Atlanta, etc. have all of the above. Maybe all of Floridas major metros except for Jacksonville have a great nightlife scene so it is taken for granted. Two of my friends that have moved to Charlotte have been happy with the city except there is not a variety of things to do and places to go at night.
Sorry if I have offended, I just thought a tier one city was a combination of many things that make it an exciting and prosperous place to live. Peace out!
2nd tier southern cities on the verge of greatness:
Charlotte
Orlando
Tampa
2nd tier cities that are up and coming:
Jacksonville
Nashville
Austin
Raleigh Durham
San Antonio (can go either way)
Richmond
2nd Tier southern cities now and in the future:
Columbia
Birmingham
Memphis
New Orleans
Knoxville
Louisville
Little Rock
Mobile
Chattanooga
Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads
Augusta
Savannah
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