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Old 01-09-2011, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Columbus, GA
2,813 posts, read 2,725,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent6969 View Post
Columbus, GA- Fort Benning--Huge
Savannah- Fort Stewart-huge
With BRAC, Fort Benning might be the largest military installation in the world.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:51 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 3,108,637 times
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^^^It has some catching up to do to get even close to Norfolk Naval Station (just one of the facilities/installations in and around VA Beach/Hampton Roads) and Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, NC. Also, the current large military cities and large bases like Fort Benning will no doubt benefit from BRAC. I know Brunswick, ME and New London, CT bases are either shutting down or seeing major downgrades, and personnel and subs are being transferred to Norfolk and Jacksonville.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Columbus, GA
2,813 posts, read 2,725,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
^^^It has some catching up to do to get even close to Norfolk Naval Station (just one of the facilities/installations in and around VA Beach/Hampton Roads) and Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, NC. Also, the current large military cities and large bases like Fort Benning will no doubt benefit from BRAC. I know Brunswick, ME and New London, CT bases are either shutting down or seeing major downgrades, and personnel and subs are being transferred to Norfolk and Jacksonville.
Thought Fort Benning was already larger than Fort Bragg. I know it isn't as large as Fort Hood. The entire Armor Division from Fort Knox is moving to Benning bringing 30,000 people with it. Also, last week Fort Benning announced it is looking to expand by 260,000 acres. Will be interesting to see what happens.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:46 PM
 
1,888 posts, read 1,089,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
Ok, so when I saw this thread, I was interested. I grew up in a military town (Jacksonville, FL). I'm surprised it wasn't really mentioned and some cities like San Antonio and New Orleans were. A military town is one in which the area's economy literally depends on the military. A military town is one where there is at least one very large base and perhaps a few others, *in* the city. A military town is one where there is at least one, if not five articles related to the local military presence in the paper every day. A military town has a long military history. A military town will always be a military town and when other bases close (BRAC 1993, 2005), they will consolidate with bases in a true military town. It's hard for a military town to be in a very liberal area, and the numbers below will show that most military towns are pretty conservative, politically.

Just as a heads up, here are some characteristics that being a military town has brought to Jacksonville. Aside from New York, Atlanta, and S FL, the largest net immigration and emigration destinations to the Jax metro are San Diego and Norfolk/Newport News/VA Beach. The military is the reason. Also, Jacksonville has one of the highest Filipino populations in the country, because of the military. Read anything about the city, and one of the first things that will be brought up is the military. The biggest area of contention in Chesapeake Virginia area is the fact that they are losing a nuclear aircraft carrier to be relocated to Jacksonville. That means they lose 9,500-11,000 jobs just like that, and NE FL gains 9,500-11,000 jobs, just like that. That's one ship (albeit a large one). Atlantic Coast/Carribean drug interdiction is carried out from Jacksonville (USCG/4th Naval Fleet). Mayport is home to the 3rd largest naval fleet in the U.S. and will be the primary homeport of the new littoral combat chips (replacing the frigates). Though there are many hangars at NAS Jax, the Navy's largest hangar was just built there for P-3s (287K SF, fits 8 P-3 Orions).

Ok, now on to the numbers. I was very generous here. I gave bases almost 100 miles out to cities, and I included CSA populations for civilian veterans (taken from US Census Bureau 2009 numbers) and for total population/%.

[Rank] [Area] [Total Active Armed Forces]
1 VA Beach/Newport/Norfolk/Hampton/Portsmouth 127,808
2 San Diego (includes Pendleton) 106,168
3 DC/Baltimore/Annapolis CSA 78,176
4 Seattle/Puget Sound CSA 55,624
5 Fayetteville, NC 47,800
6 Jacksonville, NC 43,069
7 Jacksonville, FL-Camden County, GA 42,411
8 Honolulu/Oahu 41,952
9 Fort Hood, TX (Bell County/Killeen, TX) 39,937
10 Pensacola/Fort Walton Beach 34,421
11 Columbus, GA 33,000
12 LA CSA 26,588
13 Nashville CSA 23,299
14 San Antonio 22,327
15 Charleston-Beaufort 21,809
16 Savannah 20,000
17 Louisville CSA 18,296
18 Colorado Springs 15,565
19 DFW CSA 14,897
20 Philadelphia-Trenton CSA 14,745

[Rank] [Area] [Total Military Personnel (Including Civilians)]
1 VA Beach/Newport/Norfolk/Hampton/Portsmouth 181,500
2 San Diego (includes Pendleton) 156,578
3 DC/Baltimore/Annapolis CSA 140,697
4 Seattle/Puget Sound CSA 78,488
5 Honolulu/Oahu 63,301
6 Fayetteville, NC 58,037
7 Jacksonville, FL-Camden County, GA 54,258
8 Jacksonville, NC 52,746
9 Pensacola-Fort Walton Beach 47,328
10 Fort Hood, TX (Bell County/Killeen, TX) 44,069
11 Columbus, GA 39,824
12 LA CSA 38,103
13 San Antonio 37,661
14 Philadelphia-Trenton CSA 26,716
15 Charleston-Beaufort 26,633
16 Nashville CSA 26,134
17 Chicago CSA 24,306
18 Oklahoma City CSA 22,802
19 Louisville CSA 21,917
20 Savannah 21,511
21 Colorado Springs 20,672

[Rank] [Area] [Military Population (Including Military Families)]
1 VA Beach/Newport/Norfolk/Hampton/Portsmouth 351,387
2 San Diego (includes Pendleton) 277,568
3 DC/Baltimore/Annapolis CSA 216,939
4 Fort Hood, TX (Bell County/Killeen, TX) 156,320
5 Seattle/Puget Sound CSA 142,139
6 Jacksonville, FL-Camden County, GA 126,975
7 Louisville CSA 108,373
8 Honolulu/Oahu 107,380
9 Columbus, GA 93,632
10 Jacksonville, NC 90,975
11 Pensacola-Fort Walton Beach 79,746
12 Fayetteville, NC 75,019
13 Nashville CSA 65,248
14 San Antonio 62,070
15 Savannah 58,814
16 LA CSA 55,158
17 Atlanta CSA 53,944
18 Charleston-Beaufort 45,582
19 Philadelphia-Trenton CSA 34,315
20 Tucson 34,298

[Rank] [Area] [Civilian Veterans] *(Notice that several military towns like DC-Baltimore, Seattle, San Diego, VA Beach, and Jacksonville have higher than usual numbers for their respective populations)*
1 New York/N NJ/LI/SW CT CSA 1,042,277
2 LA CSA 844,050
3 DC/Baltimore/Annapolis CSA 671,723
4 Chicago CSA 527,538
5 Philadelphia CSA 456,746
6 DFW CSA 413,882
7 Bay Area CSA 400,683
8 Seattle-Puget Sound CSA 381,794
9 Atlanta CSA 379,750
10 Detroit CSA 365,771
11 Phoenix 320,612
12 Miami/S FL 293,160
13 Boston Area 286,698
14 Tampa Bay Area 283,475
15 San Diego 252,898
16 St. Louis CSA 247,868
17 Denver CSA 222,066
18 VA Beach/Newport News/Norfolk 216,806
19 San Antonio 191,079
20 Jacksonville, FL-Camden County, GA 183,600

[Rank] [Area] [% of Total Population That Is Military (Retired or Active) or civilians employed by military and their family]
1 Fort Hood, TX (Bell County/Killeen, TX) 70%
2 Jacksonville, NC (Camp Lejeune, Cherry Point) 68%
3 Columbus, GA (Fort Benning) 43%
4 Fayetteville (Fort Bragg) 35%
5 VA Beach/Newport News/Norfolk 34%
6 Watertown, NY (Fort Drum) 30%
7 Savannah (Fort Stewart) 28%
8 Pensacola-Fort Walton Beach 27%
9 Jacksonville, FL-Camden County, GA 23%
10 Fairbanks, AK 22%
11 Honolulu/Oahu 21%
12 Topeka (Fort Riley) 21%
13 Gulfport-Biloxi-Pascagoula CSA 19%
14 Norwich-New London, CT 19%
15 San Diego (includes Pendleton) 18%
16 Charleston-Beaufort, SC 18%
17 Colorado Springs (Fort Carson, USAF Academy) 18%
18 Louisville (Fort Knox) 17%
19 Melbourne-Cocoa Beach-Vero Beach (Patrick AFB) 17%
20 Anchorage 16%

...

24 San Antonio 13%

Now for the least military cities.

[Rank] [Area] [% of Total Population That Is Military (Retired or Active) or civilians employed by military and their family]
66 Miami/SE FL 5%
65 New York/N NJ/LI/SW CT CSA 5%
64 Bay Area CSA 6%
63 Chicago CSA 6%
62 LA Area CSA 6%
61 Fresno 7%
60 Salt Lake City-Ogden-Provo CSA 7%
59 Boston Area 7%
58 Detroit CSA 7%
57 Dallas-Fort Worth CSA 7%
56 New Orleans CSA 8%
55 Memphis 8%
54 Providence/Newport/Cape Cod 8%
53 Denver CSA 8%
52 Phoenix 8%
51 Atlanta CSA 8%
50 Philadelphia-Trenton CSA 8%
49 Mobile 9%
48 Albany, NY 9%
47 Kansas City CSA 9%


***Not every single metro/CSA was examined. Only metros/CSAs that had a base of some sort. For instance Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Columbus, Austin, Sacramento, Portland, Orlando, Minneapolis, Buffalo, Indianapolis, and Birmingham are left off the list. It is doubtful that they have really high civilian military populations that would make them "military" cities.

Hopefully this puts any speculations to rest.
Very Interesting, thanks for the hard work.

I am curious about the statistics for Sacramento. I would bet Sacramento would show up in the range of #21-25 on your above list. Sacramento used to be know as a "Military Town" up until the mid 90's when 3 of its bases closed. All three bases were located in Sacramento County - Mc Clellan AFB, Mather AFB, and the Sacramento Army Depot (I think the Army Depot is still open but has been downsized dramatically). To this day there are many retired military families in the Sacramento Metro; although they seem to be dying-off with nobody to replace them.

Bases still open within 100 miles of Sacramento:
Beale AFB, located near Marysville, CA, is still open and is 40 miles north of downtown SAC.
Travis AFB, Fairfield, CA is 40 miles west of downtown SAC.
Vallejo, CA may still have some naval facilities, 60 miles southwest of downtown SAC on San Pablo Bay.
Concord, CA, 65 miles southwest of downtown SAC has some naval weapons operations (may have closed)
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Rio Grande Valley/Tone City
361 posts, read 661,413 times
Reputation: 125
San Antonio is known as military city USA! Where did you get your lists?
San Diego, San Antonio then Norfolk have the most military veterans.

San Diego Most Patriotic City in the US - PR.com





Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
Largest Military bases in the country as far as total working personnel (excluding family members that live on the base, but don't work there, also excluding adjacent military hospitals and adjacent bases that are separate and too small to make the list individually):

Norfolk Naval Station 112,033
Fort Bragg near Fayetteville, NC 54,715
Fort Hood in Killeen, TX 44,069
Fort Benning near Columbus, GA 39,824
Camp Lejeune (Jacksonville, NC) 38,637
Camp Pendleton 35 miles from San Diego 37,527
San Diego Naval Station 30,000
Naval Base Coronado (San Diego) 30,000
Fort Sam Houston near San Antonio 27,000
Fort Campbell 50 miles from Nashville 26,134
Fort Lewis, WA (next to McChord on Puget Sound near Seattle) 25,000
Jacksonville Naval Air Station 23,000
Fort Knox 45 miles from Louisville (will lose 4,600 personnel to Fort Benning) 21,917
Fort Stewart 41 miles from Savannah, GA 21,511
Washington Naval Yard (near DC) 21,426
Fort Shafter in Honolulu 16,069
Bremerton Naval Base across Puget Sound from Seattle 19,649
Mayport (Jacksonville…number seems low to me, but will gain ~10,000 from Norfolk) 15,260

Also notice how air force bases really aren't as large as the largest naval, army, and marine (Pendleton, Lejeune) bases.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:16 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 3,108,637 times
Reputation: 816
I took my information straight from the Census for civilian veterans and there is no way those cities have higher numbers of vets than the really large cities like New York, Chi, and LA. Their percentages as relative to the total population are definitely higher, though, but I used actual census numbers.

As far as base populations, I was able to find numbers for active personnel, reserve personnel (not every base has reserves), civilian personnel, and family members (not every base has families considering some bases are for training, recruitment, or security as in several of DC's bases' cases). These stats came from base websites, official military websites, and in some cases I had to use Google. Sorry all you San Antonio people who think your city is a huuuuge military town, but these numbers are as official as they come and they don't indicate San Antonio is even top 10 in the country (anymore). I found a list of bases for each military branch from Military Bases and US Military Facilities. I noticed that some of the numbers from these sites could be out of date, so I went to a large variety of other sites to find numbers for literally every base. My research could not possibly be more extensive.

Lastly, I have heard of most every major base in the country and I have always had somewhat of a grasp of what cities were big military towns, and San Antonio never came to mind. Norfolk, San Diego, DC (by default), Seattle, Honolulu, Jacksonville, Pensacola, Columbus, Fayetteville, Jacksonville NC, and Charleston area were always the areas that came immediately to mind. Of course I had heard of Fort Sam Houston and Lackland, but in the 21st century their importance to the nation and status as a hub of military activity is significantly diminished compared to say 1920. They're almost historical/training sites now, rather than major bases.

I did some specific research on SA just now to update myself, and it sure is nicknamed Military Town USA (seemingly only by locals). It also makes several different lists of top 10 cities for military vets/personnel to relocate to (which is a great sign that people love the city). It does not, however, have any bases in the top 30 or so largest bases in America, it does not have the highest number of military vets or highest percentage relative to total population, and it does not have anywhere close to the highest amount of current military and civilian personnel. My lists are about as accurate as you're going to get right now. We'll have to check back in 5 or so years after more BRAC.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:24 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 3,108,637 times
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Another interesting rating measure:

Type "military" into search to see how many threads with that word come up in the city's individual board. Then compare that number to the total number of threads for that city. Looks like San Antonio is higher than average, but not extremely high on the list. The cities in bold (including SA) are what the numbers above point to as military cities.

Columbus, GA: 24.47%
Colorado Springs: 15.87%
VA Beach/Hampton Roads: 11.44%

South Carolina: 10.90%
Hawaii: 10.52%
Anchorage: 10.10%
Virginia: 9.51%
San Diego: 7.13%
Coastal North Carolina: 6.90%
Savannah: 6.68%
Georgia: 6.20%
Northern Virginia: 4.78%
Jacksonville: 4.77%
Tucson: 4.58%
Albuquerque: 4.52%
Oklahoma City: 4.46%
DC Metro: 4.44%
North Carolina: 4.44%
Texas: 4.28%
Maryland: 4.19%
DC Metro: 4.18%
Las Vegas: 4.03%
Alaska: 3.98%
Brevard County, FL (Cape Canaveral, Patrick AFB): 3.88%
Charleston: 3.82%
New Jersey Suburbs of Philadelphia: 3.55%
Salt Lake City: 3.54%
Orange County, CA: 3.32%
Inland Empire, CA: 3.25%
Phoenix: 3.22%
Florida: 3.20%
California: 3.17%
San Antonio: 3.15%
Detroit: 3.09%
Louisville: 3.03%
Richmond: 2.96%
Houston: 2.91%
Portland, ME: 2.82%
Denver: 2.82%
Tampa: 2.78%
Memphis: 2.76%
Cincinnati: 2.57%
Sacramento: 2.50%
Tulsa: 2.37%
Miami: 2.36%
Albany, NY: 2.33%
San Francisco: 2.31%
St. Louis: 2.22%
Rhode Island: 2.22%
New Orleans: 2.20%
Seattle: 2.18%
Kansas City: 2.08%
Fort Worth: 2.07%
San Jose: 2.07%
Atlanta: 2.05%
Pittsburgh: 2.05%
Greensboro-Winston Salem-High Point: 2.04%
Chicago: 2.01%
Long Island: 1.97%
Milwaukee: 1.90%
Portland, OR: 1.90%
Orlando: 1.90%
Austin: 1.89%
Dallas: 1.88%
Los Angeles: 1.88%
Charlotte: 1.74%
New Jersey: 1.70%
Fort Lauderdale: 1.68%
Nashville: 1.43%
Minneapolis-St. Paul: 1.42%
New York City: 1.37%
Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill: 1.30% (proof Fayetteville is not in this metro being 100 miles away)
Greenville-Spartanburg: 1.28%
Columbus: 1.20%
Cleveland: 1.13%
Boston: 0.98%
Philadelphia: 0.79%
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:48 AM
 
2,368 posts, read 3,431,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
I took my information straight from the Census for civilian veterans and there is no way those cities have higher numbers of vets than the really large cities like New York, Chi, and LA. Their percentages as relative to the total population are definitely higher, though, but I used actual census numbers.

As far as base populations, I was able to find numbers for active personnel, reserve personnel (not every base has reserves), civilian personnel, and family members (not every base has families considering some bases are for training, recruitment, or security as in several of DC's bases' cases). These stats came from base websites, official military websites, and in some cases I had to use Google. Sorry all you San Antonio people who think your city is a huuuuge military town, but these numbers are as official as they come and they don't indicate San Antonio is even top 10 in the country (anymore). I found a list of bases for each military branch from Military Bases and US Military Facilities. I noticed that some of the numbers from these sites could be out of date, so I went to a large variety of other sites to find numbers for literally every base. My research could not possibly be more extensive.

Lastly, I have heard of most every major base in the country and I have always had somewhat of a grasp of what cities were big military towns, and San Antonio never came to mind. Norfolk, San Diego, DC (by default), Seattle, Honolulu, Jacksonville, Pensacola, Columbus, Fayetteville, Jacksonville NC, and Charleston area were always the areas that came immediately to mind. Of course I had heard of Fort Sam Houston and Lackland, but in the 21st century their importance to the nation and status as a hub of military activity is significantly diminished compared to say 1920. They're almost historical/training sites now, rather than major bases.

I did some specific research on SA just now to update myself, and it sure is nicknamed Military Town USA (seemingly only by locals). It also makes several different lists of top 10 cities for military vets/personnel to relocate to (which is a great sign that people love the city). It does not, however, have any bases in the top 30 or so largest bases in America, it does not have the highest number of military vets or highest percentage relative to total population, and it does not have anywhere close to the highest amount of current military and civilian personnel. My lists are about as accurate as you're going to get right now. We'll have to check back in 5 or so years after more BRAC.



Good work but I question some of the info and how you compiled your figures. It seems you were selective on some of the info which seems to be scattered not giving a fair comparison. Especially how you did metro wide and CSA figures.

Texas has the most active military in the U.S. and has the most number of retired veterans in the U.S. and San Antonio is the center of Texas Armed forces.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/11s0506.pdf
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/11s0510.pdf



San Antonio is not the only military hub but San Antonio is cleary one of the Military hubs for the U.S. The city is known as the Center of military medicine and the cyber security command of the U.S. Being a military Hub is not soley based on the number of active duty stationed at the bases, but also the level of importance that takes place there. Nonetheless San Antonio has a large DOD population.

First off It is the birthplace of the U.S. Airforce, the first flight took place at Ft. Sam Houston in 1910.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123192893

Anyone and everyone that joins the Air Force goes through basic training at Lackland, so it's the gateway to the Airforce.

The city is home to several bases, Randolph, lackland, Ft.Sam Houston, Brooks, and Camp Bullis. It is home to the largest Military medical school in the world, and home to 3 of the only Level one trauma centers in the entire military. 32,000 Army, Navy and Air Force medics will be trained each year at San Antonio's new Medical Center at one time which is opening in 2011. A total of 152,000 students yearly at all three bases. So all of the Medics in the U.S. armed forces stationed around the world will come from San Antonio.

San Antonio has the most Generals living in the area and the second highest amount of the highest ranking Generals after D.C. 425 of the nations highest ranking Generals call San Antonio home.

The U.S. government merged three San Antonio bases forming the largest military installation in the U.S. 80,000 Military plus 12,500 active duty being relocated to San Antonio in 2011.
Joint Base San Antonio is largest installation - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

Military (http://www.bexar.org/ED/Military.html - broken link)


San Antonio not really on the radar as a military hub?

250,000 Military, civillian, contract, dod population.
http://www.sanantonio.gov/oma/pdf/br...-5.26.2010.pdf

San Diego, S.A., Norfolk called most patrotic based on their numbers of civillian veterans.
San Diego Most Patriotic City in the US - PR.com

Last edited by SweethomeSanAntonio; 01-10-2011 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:31 AM
 
2,368 posts, read 3,431,680 times
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62,000 Military personal including familes in all San Antonio? Are you sure about thatl?
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 3,108,637 times
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I'm done arguing in this thread. I favored no city. I actually "gave" cities bases that shouldn't really even be considered part of the metro. I also included CSA numbers for cities when given. I counted all active, reserve, civilian, and family members for all SA bases and hospitals. If there are relocations that will occur in the future for SA, then obviously those numbers are not counted yet.

It seems to me that you just don't like the numbers. Did you see my other measure above? SA isn't even that high on the list for people inquiring about the military/military relocations in City-Data, yet SA has a very active C-D forum with over 12,000 threads. Sorry, but the numbers (which are accurate and I gave you a few starting resources that I used) and my "creative" measure of military activity do not point to San Antonio being as big of a military city as you may think. Also, air force bases are not very large installations. Large army bases, naval bases, and the two big marine bases are large bases.

Also, it makes no sense for a metro of about 2 million people (San Antonio) to have more civilian/retired veterans than a metro of over 5 million people (New York, LA, Chi, DFW, Philly, Houston, DFW, Bay Area, Atlanta, SE FL, etc). You are being dilusional if you think that. It's about military population relative to the metro population. The Census says there are 191,079 civilian veterans in the San Antonio metro for 2009 (a metro of 1,979,686 according to the Census). Add in the military/civilian personnel and their families and that makes up 13% of SA's metro. Dallas-Fort Worth CSA just up the road has 413,882 civilian/retired veterans for 6,496,791 people. Add in area military/civilian personnel and their families and that's about 7% of the DFW CSA. So SA has less military people simply because it's smaller, but it has about twice as many relative to the population.

For the Hampton Roads area (which has more military period than SA will ever have) is at about 34%. Jacksonville, FL with Camden County to its north is about 23%. The island of Oahu is about 21%. San Diego is about 18%. Most of the major northern metros, Miami, and the CA metros are less than 8%.

And the other thing is there are now several "joint bases". Most of these joint bases are strings of bases that are literally adjacent to each other and form one very large contiguous base. The three bases in SA that form the SA Joint Base are miles apart. It's hard for me to consider them "one base." One of your articles states that together and with new troops brought in by Oct. 1 (to bring it to full occupational capacity), the single joint base will employ roughly 80,000 military and civilian personnel and train 138,000 students annually. It may take the cake for student training (for Air Force, at least), but that 80,000 figure is actually pretty small compared to some of the other cities. One of the naval stations in Norfolk employs well over 100,000 military/civilian personnel. The two adjacent naval stations in San Diego employ roughly 30,000 each when the ships are largely out to see. When the ships are homeported, that number balloons to over 50,000 each and they sit next to each other (might as well be one base). There are several army bases in the country that employ 40,000-50,000+ personnel at one single base.

Bottom line, is I think my numbers are accurate (they aren't my own concocted numbers...most of these numbers I got from the military websites themselves), and I was very generous. If you don't like them, too bad. I haven't done anything to put down SA. I have favored SA in other threads of city v city, but I never knew it to be a huge military town and none of the numbers or even City-Data seems to point to it being one (bigger military town than average for sure, but not like some of the coastal navy towns).
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