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View Poll Results: Which offers better city living?
Buckhead 79 34.20%
Hoboken 152 65.80%
Voters: 231. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-19-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: roaming gnome
12,385 posts, read 28,372,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk8t View Post
So it is all or nothing? What does the dictionary say?
I am not sure about the dictionary but city data categorizes them.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:11 PM
 
531 posts, read 1,137,482 times
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waronxmas: The code of conduct thing was obviously a joke. I said that simply because one of you Atlantans (deacon i think) comments on everyone's posts saying "please remember to report users like this blahblah blah" anytime they say something negative about Atlanta.

But anyways, the poll results say it all! Moreover, I would bet that a solid 50% of Atlanta's votes came from locals, whereas almost all of Hoboken's votes came from people all around the country--who have absolutely no bias or secret agenda in their vote. So, the poll should probably be lot more one-sided than it actually is (though hoboken is still winning convincingly).

In addition to the poll results, you got posters like Grapico who are posting objective facts and statistics that support Hoboken's superiority in this particular context.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,465 posts, read 14,896,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Almost everyone in Jersey know's this. It is or was in the Guinness world record book as well.
Well I guess it would be a plus if I ever found myself in Hoboken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Really? find me a 1 square mile in Atlanta that has over 40K people, then see if it's "not hard to do"
Perhaps around Georgia Tech or the AUC would be comparable. That isn't what I meant. Percentages are a tricky thing when you are talking about small municipalities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Well Hoboken didn't "invent" baseball- That was somewhere in Europe, but Europeans brought it over to Hoboken and played the first ever American Baseball game.
052210_hoboken_famous_welcometohoboken | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40375323@N06/4650295035/ - broken link)
That's more relevant, and I agree that it is a plus for Hoboken as I love baseball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Not like Hoboken (other than NYC, I haven't seen a more prominent taxi system than lil ol Hoboken)
Well that's a different thing than saying Hoboken has it's own cab company.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Well, those cakes are phenominal none the less... Alton Brown is good
I agree that his cakes do look yummy. I could stand to not have all the contrived scenes though. Alton Brown is one of the coolest mofos you will ever come across. Not arrogant in the least.





Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
I'm assuming it was rating the charm of America Streets- Not a street riddled with chain restaurants and retail.
Didn't want to take anything away from it. It just seemed not the best of sources given the other streets they chose. There are probably several hundred streets across america more comparable to Washington Street than that sorry list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Atlanta is Huge- Hoboken is a town of 42K... IDK what's common about that AT ALL
I dunno, from all of my travels I have to encounter a single city that had either a museum or history center dedicated to learning about all the important things in that town. Im starting to guess you might have had a different purpose in posting that.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: St Paul, MN - NJ's Gold Coast
5,251 posts, read 13,750,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Well I guess it would be a plus if I ever found myself in Hoboken.




Perhaps around Georgia Tech or the AUC would be comparable. That isn't what I meant. Percentages are a tricky thing when you are talking about small municipalities.



That's more relevant, and I agree that it is a plus for Hoboken as I love baseball.



Well that's a different thing than saying Hoboken has it's own cab company.






I agree that his cakes do look yummy. I could stand to not have all the contrived scenes though. Alton Brown is one of the coolest mofos you will ever come across. Not arrogant in the least.







Didn't want to take anything away from it. It just seemed not the best of sources given the other streets they chose. There are probably several hundred streets across america more comparable to Washington Street than that sorry list.




I dunno, from all of my travels I have to encounter a single city that had either a museum or history center dedicated to learning about all the important things in that town. Im starting to guess you might have had a different purpose in posting that.

It's whatever, Galounger was obviously wrong. Hoboken arguably exudes more of a significance than any other city of its size, it's not "Just all density"
You'd have to go there to "get it" - Like you have a special connection with Buckhead, and I have one with Hoboken. They're both great, but should they be compared? HELL NO.

And I still think Hoboken is obviously the more urban area. I don't see how this got to be 80+ pages of trying to convince otherwise.

Last edited by BPerone201; 10-19-2010 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:21 PM
 
531 posts, read 1,137,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
I agree on this...

You obviously believe that are differing levels of urbanity. If you are classifying anything in Atlanta as high density urban, to medium urban. Then, what do you consider cities with much much higher densities? If Atlanta is hitting 16K over .2 and that is about dense as it gets. What do you call areas that are 150K over .2?
This is a good point. If were going to start applying the word 'urban' to areas with such comparatively low density, then were gonna need to come up with a new term altogether for the genuine urban cities (chi ny sf bos phi etc etc etc). As some Atlanta poster astutely pointed out earlier, this is just a case of semantics; you guys are using the word 'urban' in its most general and weakest form, whereas we are influenced by the cultural and connotative implications associated with the word.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:27 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,465 posts, read 14,896,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
You obviously believe that are differing levels of urbanity.
Of course there are. Urban comes in many different forms, all of which can not easily be summed up and all of which are open to interpretation. My biggest beef is those who insist on being intellectually dishonest and do not step out of what they know to learn something new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
If you are classifying anything in Atlanta as high density urban, to medium urban. Then, what do you consider cities with much much higher densities? If Atlanta is hitting 16K over .2 and that is about dense as it gets. What do you call areas that are 150K over .2?
This is where things must be defined, and of course there are two different ways of looking at it.

First in the context of NYC, a population density of 150,000 in .2 square miles is high density urban. For Atlanta, a population density of 20,000 in .2 square miles is high density urban. For NYC and Atlanta, those values are high in the context of those particular cities (as most areas in both cities do not have areas that high in population density) but not in the context of those two cities compared to each other.

Or.

You can think of population density in tiers (this can be for an area of any size)

0-500 people per square mile - Rural/Exurban
500-2000 people per square mile - Suburban
2000-4000 people per square mile - Low/Medium low Density Urban
4000-15000 people per square mile - Medium high/lower High Density urban (give or take)
15000-30000 people per square mile - High density urban
30000-200000 people per square mile - Very High Density urban (the range for this group is so large since you rarely find any variation after this type of density occurs in a pattern)
200000-+ people per square mile - Hyper density urban (Lived in a few places like that. It is not fun.)

Of course, those differentiations are my own creation, but they do follow a pattern. Urban can be more than one thing. Just because a place is not urban in the way Manhattan or Boston or San Francisco are doesn't mean it isn't urban at all or even suburban. Particular within the context of the city you are speaking about, but mostly because the world is not black and white and the earth isn't flat. There is more than one way of doing the same thing.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:42 PM
 
531 posts, read 1,137,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Of course there are. Urban comes in many different forms, all of which can not easily be summed up and all of which are open to interpretation. My biggest beef is those who insist on being intellectually dishonest and do not step out of what they know to learn something new.



This is where things must be defined, and of course there are two different ways of looking at it.

First in the context of NYC, a population density of 150,000 in .2 square miles is high density urban. For Atlanta, a population density of 20,000 in .2 square miles is high density urban. For NYC its value is high, for Atlanta it's value is high in talking in the context of those particular cities but not in the context of those two cities compared to each other.

Or.

You can think of population density in tiers (this can be for an area of any size)

0-500 people per square mile - Rural/Exurban
500-2000 people per square mile - Suburban
2000-4000 people per square mile - Low/Medium low Density Urban
4000-15000 people per square mile - Medium high/lower High Density urban (give or take)
15000-30000 people per square mile - High density urban
30000-200000 people per square mile - Very High Density urban (the range for this group is so large since you rarely find any variation after this type of density occurs in a pattern)
200000-+ people per square mile - Hyper density urban (Lived in a few places like that. It is not fun.)

Of course, those differentiations are my own creation, but they do follow a pattern. Urban can be more than one thing. Just because a place is not urban in the way Manhattan or Boston or San Francisco are doesn't mean it isn't urban at all or even suburban. Particular within the context of the city you are speaking about, but mostly because the world is not black and white and the earth isn't flat. There is more than one way of doing the same thing.
see, your definition of urban is WAY too broad.

If you use the first methodology you provided, then that leaves room to say things like: neighborhood "y" in Fargo, ND has a density of "x" which is the highest in all of the city; thus, neighborhood "y" in Fargo, ND is urban. Urban should NOT be a relative term--and as I said in my previous post, the cultural and connotative implications associated with the word do a good job of ensuring that it doesn't become one. Hence, this argument right now.

Problem with methodology #2:

This is--as you'd admit--a completely arbitrary concept. And it seems like you chose these specific numbers simply because it caters to you argument re: atl.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:27 PM
 
499 posts, read 663,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
And I thought Buckhead was a little over 30 square miles thinking the comparison is way out of whack. You just proved that the difference is even more dramatic.
And you hit te nail on the head- Hoboken is like a neighborhood (assuming Hudson county is the city)- hell, Hudson county is just under 50 square miles- the population in Hudson county is 6 times the size of the 80 square miles in Buckhead.

Buckhead is a chic modern urban neighborhood (in some parts anyway)- You just can't match Buckhead to the urbaness of an inner ring community of Manhattan.

Like I said, Silver Spring is a better match up for Buckhead- Park Slope is a better match up for Hoboken.

I'm trying not to sound bias here.
I know you missed me but are we going to go there again?

When I think of City life as in the original post I think of Live, Work and Play.

Cities by definition are founded on the principals of trade, commerce and business.

Silver Spring fits this definition far better than Hoboken. Silver Spring is just as walkable and more diverse, has a very diverse economy with the headquarters of media giants like TV One and Discovery Communications
to billion dollar biotechs like United Therapeautics. It's getting a Fillmore right in its core. Way more diversity in restaurants than Hoboken. Can I find Ethiopian in Hoboken how about at least 5 stores from clothing to markets?

Do a fair comparison and take Silver Spring's core against Hobokens,Silver Spring will win, its more like New York in miniature than Hoboken is.

What are the chances one will Live, Work and Play in Hoboken?
Hoboken is nothing more than bedroom community of New York.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:31 PM
 
499 posts, read 663,616 times
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And the ones with the density fetish are very much liken to the caveman mesmerized by the shiny rock. Stop having such a myopic view of city life and urbanity.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: GA-TX
442 posts, read 822,433 times
Reputation: 220
This is stupid. If you asked someone coming from a farm town if midtown Atlanta is urban or rural what do you think they are going to say? Of course there is not black and white answer to "what is urban" unless you use the dictionary. This argument is again, stupid.
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